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Post by aetios on Sept 1, 2010 10:26:32 GMT -5
Do the horsemen normally have spears? If so, I'd say drop the flails if that would get you the points you need. Better to keep the extra warriors who will add to your total attacks than the special weapons on guys who are likely to die in combat before they get the chance to use them anyway.
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Post by bob on Sept 1, 2010 10:42:16 GMT -5
Well they don't come with spears. They don't come with anything. They're I4, so they usually get a few wacks in, but then die horrible, so why bother?
OTOH, wounding on 2s/3s vs. war machines is a lot better than 4s/5s...
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Sept 1, 2010 10:45:07 GMT -5
Understandable about the deploys. The flails would free up the 20 points, so I'd drop those... if the Marauder Horsemen had MoK then I could see the flails being slightly more effective but as is they just don't have enough stopping power.
It helps vs. Warmachines, which is what these guys are great at killing, but you also have both your characters on disc flying around. Those guys have the speed and balls to take down a warmachine in combat pretty easily too, so it's not like you're totally relying on the Marauder Horsemen... I think the flails would be easy enough to drop.
Or simply free up points from the Warrior or Chosen units. As you said, the static isn't as important so you can afford to lose a model or two from either of those units.
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Post by bob on Sept 1, 2010 10:47:23 GMT -5
I'm going to drop the flails for next game I play. I think the Breath Weapon is worth it (according to the math weanies, with staying 1" away from a unit it's theoretically possible to hit 30 guys with the template...that's worth a bit more than a few S5 attacks, I think )
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mandrathrax
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you cant beat a dwarf with a grudge...
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Post by mandrathrax on Mar 9, 2011 19:49:11 GMT -5
really great army. i think it will do really well
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Post by bob on Dec 1, 2011 16:27:20 GMT -5
Well, I got really excited to use the Vampire army, and was all motivated to assemble and finish painting it (even bought a pack of brushes and some Rotting Flesh to get to work!) but have learned that the next scheduled Fantasy book is Vampires! So they're on hold, back in the coffin with them. But, I want to play and hopefully compete in tourneys, so I'm going back to WoC. This list may get dice thrown at me, as it combines some of the meanest things in the book together in to one (hopefully) mean package: - Chicken On A Plate: Sorcerer Lord of Tzentch (Lvl 4): Disc of Tzeentch; Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation; Infernal Puppet; Bloodcurdling Roar This guy is hard as nails: 1+ armour save; 3+ ward save; Puppet lets him modify ALL rolls on the miscast chart (yours AND mine); 3 Wounds; causes fear (thanks to Disc); Flies; and has a fun 12" ranged attack that causes 2d6 S1 hits with no Armour Saves. Tzeentch magic isn't super-great, but Gateway deals a ton of damage, Treason can thin out giant units; Pandemonium is solid; and Flickering Fire is a reliable way to take away Regeneration for a phase. He's a big 425 points, but will be hard to nail down and kill...hopefully...so good point denial - Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer): Disc of Tzeentch; Shield; Dragonhelm; Golden Eye of Tzeentch; Stream of Corruption A BSB is pretty much a must-have. He also flies, causes fear, has 1+ Armour Save; a 1+ Ward vs. Fire; and a 3+ ward vs. all Missile Attacks (include Magic Missiles). He'll probably be busy, as he's got to keep the flag where I need it while he's going to be tasked with ranged weapon/war-machine killing. Hopefully his S3 Breath Weapon will let him beat down Archer units, while his 4 S5 attacks will have to do vs. War Machines. - 5 Chaos Warhounds -5 Chaos Warhounds Cheap deploys (30 points each) and charge takers/redirecters are still gold in 8th, and these guys fit the bill perfect. Slow, weak and weedy, they're still a good value...and nice models, too - 5 Marauder Horsemen: Musician; Javelin; Flails; Light Armour - 5 Marauder Horsemen: Musician; Javelin; Flails; Light Armour I've loaded them up to be not-so-cheap, but 91 points for Fast Cav with 5+AS, a thrown ranged-weapon (Quick to Fire and Fast Cav means they can march and throw without penalty!) that can dish out some S5 melee attacks (extra ability to deal with armies with many ranged troops) seems pretty good to me. - 17 Chaos Warriors: Mark of Khorne; Musician; Standard; Halberds - 17 Chaos Warriors: Mark of Khorne; Musician; Standard; Halberds Pricey, at 320 each unit, but able to dish out a ton of damage...3 S5 attacks each with WS5 and I5, and still sporting a 4+ Armour Save. I think they're pretty vulnerable to Ranged attacks, but there's some units above that can help with that. I really don't have a good feel for how well they'll perform against "super-heavy" units, but hopefully there's enough other stuff in here that they won't have to fight terrible alone. - 17 Chosen: Mark of Khorne; Champion (Favour of the Gods); Standard; Musician; Halberds Very pricey, at 408, but with the buff from their initial Eye of the Gods roll, modifiable from the Champions Favour, and the Warshrine below, they should become a super-killy unit. Still, mildy squishy, but should be able to dish out crazy amounts of damage(6-wide they'll have 25 WS6 S5 I5 attacks: 11 wounds, not counting any EoG buffs). Also this unit will be modeled using all old and unique Chaos Warrior models from the late 80s and early 90s. - Chaos Warshrine of Tzeentch 150 points for T6 with a 3+ ward save is nice just by itself. It dishes out a few WS5 S4 attacks, too...but it's ability to buff one unit in the army will be key. When combined with the first EoG roll the Chosen get, and their ability to modify their result, this guy can keep reapplying buffs each turn to try to get the result I really want (4+ ward and Stubborn is nice!). - Hellcannon- Hellcannon Here's where you throw dice at me. M6 WS4 S5 T6 W5 A5 Unbreakable Stone Throwers. Yeah, they may go crazy and eat my own army, but it's just as likely they'll eat yours! These guys should be able to deal considerable damage to any unit: either with stone throwing or in melee. So as a whole it's got some fast speedy flying characters with great saves able to dish out damage at range and stay out of LOS and safe (hopefully!); with a good deal of offensive magic capability (Tzeentch gives +1 on roll to cast) and defense (if you miscast I'll be able to use the Puppet to make the result worse!). Some Dogs and Horsemen to clog up the charge lanes (and screen my Frenzied Korne troops!) as well as get in to ranged units quickly. 2 solid and 1 EXTREMELY solid melee units able to dish out terrifying damage consistently. And 3 T6 "monsters" that are both survivable and add a lot of support thru buffs and ranged ability. I don't 'really like the Hellcannon model GW makes. I think it's overpriced, for one, and it's just too...I don't know...too much. I'm going to take some super-old Juggernaughts, have some 1/2" PVC piping leaning up over their shoulders, green-stuff a Maw around the muzzle and carve some runes down the side (this will be my first attempt at something like this!) and stick some skulls in it (I'm sure I've got some skulls around somewhere!). I hate the idea of Chaos Dwarves randomly serving in a WoC army, so will use either old Chaos Warrior models, Beastmen, or Daemons of some kind as crew. C&C welcome, please!
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Post by Tim on Dec 1, 2011 18:43:10 GMT -5
Really rocking list. Warriors and Chosen are hard as nails. The war shrine takes a concentrated effort to take out, and is a great support choice. The hell cannon's times 2? *Grabs dice, preps throw* That really is nasty. -1 panic test on any unit is bad enough, but don't forget the lucky misfire that makes wizards take miscast, combined with the puppet, nasty. I suppose you did take a concession, I mean where the hell is the black tongue =P
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Dec 1, 2011 22:14:48 GMT -5
The Hellcannons and Warshrine are mean. I love 'em, if I was to get seriously back into Fantasy they'd definitely be things on the wishlist (I learned most of my Fantasy list-mojo from you, of course). I agree on the Hellcannon models -- cool conversions could definitely be worthwhile. Not as many bodies as I'm used to seeing, but still very solid. The Warrior blocks are great, Chosen should perform well (Fury or Rage or whatever the hell it is can be a bit of a liability though...). I'd like to see one block of warriors with hw/shields, for the uber durability. 3+/6++ (or 5++ with Tzeentch) makes one hell of an anvil unit. Characters are solid. I still like the crazy broken BRB lores over Tzeentch, but Tzeentch is more consistent and less cheezy (it was also the first "kill whole unit" spell in the game, so has better street cred ). The discs are awesome. Man, makes me want to dig my evil Vikings out. I was rolling around ideas of a Daemon Prince a long while back, but I think I just want a Dragon Lord now
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Post by Tim on Dec 1, 2011 22:34:41 GMT -5
An often missed/overlooked 8th ed rule, frenzy troops don't get a parry save, so if you are going Khorne you gotta go all out.
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Post by bob on Dec 2, 2011 13:16:00 GMT -5
Yeah, Brian, I might do one Shield with MoTz and one Halberd with MoK, as you'd done before. But really I'd rather win the combat by killing you outright than outlasting you. It's more Khorney. Sadly, Dragon Lord won't really work. At 2500 you've got 625 for a Lord. Lord is 210, Dragon 360, taking you to 570 before any gifts, items, or marks. You could do some simple cheap items, like maybe a Shield, Sword of Might, and Golden Eye...hmm, that's actually not horrible, and gets a fun dragon on the table. Consider your idea stolen! I agree about the BRB lores too. I'd much rather have Shadow, but I think having him on the flying disc to stay out of the way is key to his Point Denial. The "rest" of the list doesn't really have a good home for a relatively squishy caster. Still, putting him on foot in the Chosen and having Lore of Shadows is possible...but not really the "feel" I want. I used to have (and they are modeled) with Shields as well as the Halberds. I really felt the 3+ helped vs. ranged firepower. But getting the points for all that was getting tricky. If the 2 Hellcannons prove to be too unpleasant, I'll drop one of them for some Chaos Knights. If I've got points for Mark of Khorne, so much the better. I guess this list theory is that there's not really any problem that can't be solved by the swift and overzealous application of brute force and naked frenzied aggression. Here's a trick I learned...when you charge something, if it flees you can either choose to pursue it, or pass a Ldr test to choose a new charge target. If the pursuee would run in to another unit, it stops 1" away (not a charge as in 7th). You can only choose to redirect one time in a charge. So, I put dogs in front, with horsemen a bit behind, and chosen/warriors a bit behind them. My units are screened such that I'm not forced to declare a charge because I can't complete one. But if you charge the dogs, they'll flee thru the horsemen and warriors. Warriors are Frenzy, so ItP; horsemen get reroll for panic (Will of Chaos), so they'll likely stay too. If you redirect to the Horsemen, they'll flee too, and you're unable to pursue in to or charge the warriors, who will charge you next turn and make salad bowls from your skulls. (Khorne encourages his warriors to eat a lot of roughage and green leefy veggies.) If you don't charge, I'm perfectly content to have my flying characters take out your shooting while my Hellcannons barrage you.
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Post by RodTheCid on Dec 2, 2011 14:35:49 GMT -5
very mean list, just the warriors/chosen combination can flat anything in front of them with little help and it top of that you have the Hellcannons, by the way, very cool Juggernauts conversion idea
I always like WoC, I even have a unassembled warriors box at home, that is been waiting patiently for me for years
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Dec 2, 2011 18:15:51 GMT -5
If I had a book, I'd make a list with that Dragon Lord I can't remember my old build, can't seem to dig it up... The Tzeentch warriors aren't as purely killy, but against most enemy scrubs they'll do just fine. WS5 S4 2A is more than enough to clean house on cheap, disposable enemies. I think the extra defensive stats are a nice tool to have in your army, in case you need something to tarpit. That frenzy trick should work well with the Chosen blob, and once they're stuck in they'll do their job just fine. The hellcannon is probably better, but man I love me some Chaos Knights... they're probably one of the few heavy cavalry units that's still worth it. The disc is an integral part of your list, so keeping the Tzeentch lore is totally necessary. Don't have to deal with the cries of broken associated with the BRB lores either.
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