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Post by aetios on Jun 4, 2012 14:23:15 GMT -5
I'm trying to come up with 2 completely opposite lists for Cryx that I can pull off at this time, using only models I actually own. As you can guess, one list would have no jacks (with the exception of eating up the free jack points the caster provides). The other list would have, at the most, one unit of troops, being otherwise only solos and jacks. Without owning Mortenebra, that's harder to come up with. The no 'jack list caster was an easy choice - Terminus. He's focus hungry and helps keep his troops alive anyway. Here's what I came up with: Lich Lord Terminus (+4) -Scavenger (4) 10 Bane Knights (10) 10 Bane Thralls (8) Bane Lord Tartarus (4) 10 Mechanithralls (5) Necrosurgeon and Stitch Thralls (2) Withershadow Combine (5) 3 Scrap Thralls (1) The idea is the Bane Thralls primarily handle opposing jacks/beasts, with the Withershadow aiding in jack killing when available. Otherwise, they're there to allow Terminus to stay at full focus by upkeeping Malediction for free and to have the ability to kill only those affected by magic. The Knights can handle troops, with Tartarus aiding and cursing, and the Mechthralls screen Terminus and provide a little more hitting power. I wasn't sure what to do with the free 4 points, cryx have so many bonejacks. But I figured the Scavenger can fly, so hide behind something till needed then pounce on injured things using Finisher, then run away. Thoughts? For the primarily jack list, I was thinking eSkarre. She's got 3 spells that go a long way with jacks, plus Seas of Fate. Here's the list: Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast (+6) -Nightwretch (4) -Desecrator (9) -Slayer (6) -Slayer (6) 10 Bane Thralls (8) -Bane Thrall UA (3) Warwitch Siren (2) Warwitch Siren (2) Necrotech (1) -Scrap Thrall (-) It doesn't seem very focus efficient, but I think it can be. The Desecrator stays near the Banes for his free focus, plus I can get him another with a Warwitch. Conversely, the Warwitches can just pass out focus to the slayers and nightwretch as needed. The Bane Thralls are there to kill... well, anything really. They're not as good without Tartarus, but with some luck can still hit some troops. I was also considering Bloodgorgers with Slaughterborn or Satyxis Raiders with the UA. Neither hit as hard as the Bane Thralls, but I don't know if I need them too with all those jacks. The Bloodgorgers/Slaughterborn would be an even swap for points, while the Satyxis would cost one less. The only thing I know I really need is a Skarlock, but don't know if that's better to have than the 2 Warwitches. Lastly, with 4 jacks running around I figured a Necrotech is just a good idea to try to keep them running. And if they die, I get Scrap Thralls! I don't own Blood Witches, Cephalyx, Soulhunters, Revenants or Ghost Raiders, so am trying to keep them out. Or a Deathjack (though I really really want one!). With those exceptions, any ideas for improvements? Maybe use a different caster for either list?
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Jun 4, 2012 19:14:03 GMT -5
As a note between a low 'jack list, I think you should take more than a bonejack. Obviously, I'm used to running a single 'jack (Damn you Khador and your deceptive advertising!) in most of my lists... but I really think having one heavy is important. I'm a fan of ranged 'jacks, which can be relatively focus efficient, but Cryx doesn't have anything like a Destroyer or Black Ivan for that. A cheap combat helljack may be another nice contender instead... open fists and cool power attacks give you options. High armor/health boxes lets you bully models that can't threaten you at all (especially late game, when the heavy hitters are already spent). It can also screen Terminus from shooting, which may be helpful. Or worst case scenario, use it as a convincing piece trade, to bait out enemy 'jacks/beasts/anti-armor... you can kill that with your Banes, and help remove another threat to Terminus.
That's a lot of the army composition I've been getting into when playing Butcher -- having a big tanky caster allows you to play a different game than a more traditional/conservative one. The trick is to keep your 'caster out of harms way for the early/mid game... the goal is to isolate what your opponent has that can threaten your heavy hitter, and kill it ASAP. You can let your troopers die to fulfill this goal, which means you can set up really attractive piece trades for your opponent (or something of the sort). My 35 point Butcher list uses this philosophy:
The Butcher of Khardov (*6pts) * Behemoth (13pts) * Destroyer (9pts) * War dog (1pts) Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts) Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts) Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts) * Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts) Koldun Lord (2pts) Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Two big Khador heavies to take down, and some mechanics to keep them alive. Usual Winterguard deathstar shenanigans. It's a big scary, shooty gunline. Aiyanna and Holt give me magic weapons, the Koldun Lord is there just for utility (and a free focus on my 'jacks if I ever need it). I bait out your heavy hitters against my 'jacks, and then kill them. Eventually a good opponent will be able to take down both of them, but will have paid dearly for it... and suddenly, when Butcher is running around at the end of the game at Def 17 Arm 23 your opponent has nothing to really scare him with. I think Terminus can do something like this as well... probably a little different, since his feat helps survivability and Cryx heavies are too squishy. But one helljack in there gives you another piece to force your opponent's hand with, to allow Terminus to bully things around in the end game.
Sorry for the threadjack, but those are just some of my thoughts about your first list. Terminus is a beast on his own, so set up his list to burn out your opponent's army and remove threats that can tackle him. Then he can come into his own in the end game. Won't work against every list or in every game (some wonky scenarios could make it hard for a caster to solo the enemy army), but I think it's a convincing strategy and a good reason to include a heavy instead of a light.
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Post by aetios on Jun 5, 2012 9:07:48 GMT -5
Hahaha threadjack away, doesn't bother me!
I had never really thought about running a list without at least one heavy jack, but I was reading online somewhere that one of the top people at this year's Lock & Load was a Cryx player who used a Terminus list without a single jack. I don't know what his list was exactly, but I figured why not give it a try?
I'm not worried about screening Terminus from shooting, he's on a large base anyway and has sacrificial pawn, so the mechthralls, and even the banes if need be, will eat any shooting at him. I wish I had another unit of Bane Thralls instead of Bane Knights for the list, but alas I don't. Then I'd take those two extra points and throw 2 Brute Thralls in with the Mechanithralls. That at least gives a little bit more heavy hitting (two POW 14 attacks or one POW 19 attack each). I could also use those Brutes to block trample lanes from any heavies.
One option I am considering is to drop the Withershadow Combine and throw in a unit of Bile Thralls instead. This gives me a greater ability to knock out enemy troops thanks to their explosions/sprays. I can't fit a full unit but hey, 6 is still scary enough on their own especially if I can make a few tough rolls. However I do lose the focus saving and magic abilities they bring to the table, so I don't know if that's worth it.
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Post by dante on Jun 5, 2012 10:05:42 GMT -5
Well this sounds alot like my terminis list with malice and 30 mech thralls =).
Cryx can run without jacks no problem i think, they have some of the strongest infantry and debuffs to let those infantry do stuff in the game. I would use pasphy over skarre for the all jack list, but that i guess is mostly preference. I have an extra prime if u want it haha.
But cryx can go without jacks easy. Even in my newest goreshade lists, yeah i have 4 jacks but 4 assassin light jacks with 16 boxes and armor 13 =P and no heavies. The no jack approach just focuses on your application of weapon masters and in this case terminis. I don't really see any glaring problems with it other than your a jerk for using 20 banes with him hahaha. And the unit of mech thralls are awesome for terminis' sac. pawn.
As for your jack list, i wouldn't call slayer spam jack heavy. I would drop the bane thralls seeing as having 12 weapon masters and 3 heavy warjacks in one list is a bit redundant and pick up a unit of mechanithralls, maybe making the list look something like this.
Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast66 Deathripper4 Harrower10 Reaper7 Seether9 Mechanithralls (Leader and 9 Grunts)5 Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall1 Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall1 Warwitch Siren2 Warwitch Siren2
This way u have pretty much that same body count for half the price, and to boot 3 heavy jacks worth a damn, don't ever underestimate the killing potential of mech thralls, they kill infantry just as good as bane thralls and at half the cost of ur max unit with UA. Deathrippers are much more focus eff. than nightwretches, the two sirens will allow u to boost the hell out of 1-2 jacks a turn, the mechaniks will keep your jacks hopefully running because as you and me both know, 1 mechanic wll never do anything hahaha. I love the harrower because he can do really anything, and having thresher and a AOE is perfect for a jack list beacause often they are swamped by infantry. The reapers is awesome because being able to pull things out of line for a 1-2 punch knockout is brilliant. Then finally the seether....i don't gotta sell him to anyone i don't think.
Now i know you wrote that you only want to use models that you own and if those jacks are the only ones you own go for it haha. Just suggestions.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Jun 5, 2012 17:52:48 GMT -5
Sacrificial pawn on Terminus is sweet. Forgot about that ability. Not having too much experience playing against Terminus, but I'll pick on Dante because I know he used to run him a lot... I remember during one tournament match up, Dante was basically screwed because he didn't have any way to handle a ton of high defense models. My pIrusk list was able to take apart his infantry systematically before Behemoth walked over and punched Terminus in the face. Bile Thralls may be a good inclusion to help prevent that, the Banes are already scaring the crap out of armor stuff. The Combine is cool, but I'm never super sold on them... they in theory can threaten 'jacks, and have cool spell utility, but limited application outside of that. The Bile Thralls aren't as much of a help against lists without much infantry, but aren't they medium bases? Won't that stop tramples? A small unit of them just seems cooler to me.
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Post by dante on Jun 6, 2012 0:52:27 GMT -5
Well i think anyone will flounder trying to hit Def 16 winterguard =/ and inhosbitable ground won you that game for sure brian. Maybe considering adding blackbane for your infantry horde? Helps get around the model/unit collision and or field manipulating obstacles.
Food for thought.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Jun 6, 2012 2:04:14 GMT -5
Well, my point is that Bile Thralls would have gone a long way toward helping you purge your away around my high defense basic pathfinder kit tends to be important too haha.
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Post by aetios on Jun 6, 2012 9:10:08 GMT -5
Well for the Skarre list Dante, the banes are only in there to get the Desecrator its free focus point. I know dual slayers isn't really considered jack spam, but it kind of is for Cryx with an additional two on top. I mean, outside of multiple bonejacks, how often do you see cryx running more than 1, maybe 2 heavies (discounting Mortenebra of course)? Our casters are so focus hungry it normally doesn't work IMO.
That being said, how about this instead for Skarre:
pSkarre -Harrower -Slayer x2 -Nightwretch Bloat Thrall 6 Satyxis Raiders -Satyxis Sea Witch Warwitch Siren x2 Necrotech x2 -2 Scrap Thralls
I figure this gives me a good mix of everything killing capability. I'll have the most difficulty with Hordes as the Raiders are vastly less effective vs. them, but it might still hold up well thanks to two attacks each and a DEF 16 vs. shooting. Skarre's Black Spot spell will most likely be the key to victory. The Harrower and Bloat Thrall can drop large AOEs all over the field. Thanks to Ghost Shot and Arcing Fire, intervening models are no problem. Should they manage to land a kill on a unit/model with Black Spot on it, that's another free shot I get to toss out. The nightwretch can potentially do the same, though on a smaller scale. The dual slayers, while not the scariest jacks, are still heavies and can put a hurt on something (and if I'm desperate I can throw my Bloat Thrall at the enemy... 5" AOE when he dies!).
For the Terminus list, I definitely think I like the idea of the Bile Thralls over the Withershadow. I'm sure at some point I'll be crying for some magic weapons, but I think that will be far less often than I would be crying for some high defense and easier shield wall killing capability.
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Post by hivemindbob on Jun 7, 2012 17:55:25 GMT -5
I know you wanted to use a caster you own, but... Mortinebra is the BOMB! for jack lists. Spell combos like overrun specteral steel and if you can terminal velocity make harrower a gross infantry murdering mess. Couple that with focus effective jacks like seethers or DJ and throw a couple war witches in there and you have a rip snorting good time! some mechanics are good for a point a piece, and some banes can make some crazy focus efficent jacks. My goofy 2 cents.
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