sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Mar 6, 2013 13:27:58 GMT -5
Agreed that Soul Grinders are really strong toolbox models. FMC will play similarly to last codex, I think, but still be quite strong. Lots of potential there for a solid army (though suffers, I think, from being focused on five models). I wouldn't sweat Draigowing too much -- it has too many bad match ups across other armies to make it consistent in tournaments, and frankly I haven't seen any Draigo/Paladin block besides my own in the past year... I don't get to as many tourneys as you guys do, but I've been to a handful at least.
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Post by bob on Mar 6, 2013 13:50:21 GMT -5
2 GK armies on top tables at Colonial both had Paladin blobs...
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Post by breng77 on Mar 6, 2013 14:17:48 GMT -5
Paladin's are quite good, especially now that Flamers and Screamers are gone. I think FMCs will work OK Vs paladins so long as you have some overwatch bait for the turn you want to charge.
Love Soul Grinders so far.
From my game last night things I have found
1.) I cannot rend worth a damn, but I'll keep at it with seekers because they are super fast and I love speedy units.
2.)The Grimior is worth taking, giving seekers a 3++ save is awesome (giving anything one is great)
3.) Locus of Beguilement is very nice because it gives challaging a huge buff, and re-rolls for seekers are great.
4.) I hate the warp storm table, not because I think it is that bad it self, just because I know it is going to take me a while to remeber to roll for it.
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Post by bob on Mar 6, 2013 14:21:05 GMT -5
I feel you on the rends, I'm in the same boat! I'm not sold on the Grimoir...too random for me. When I really need it, I'll roll the 1. I'm loving that Locus too, best one there is IMO. Too bad we can't combine with the +5 I one! I had the Warpstorm thingie do a wound to Draigo last night...It also killed off about 15 of my models when I rolled the snakeeyes I'm hoping to try Grinders tonight. I'm kind of leaning towards just Torrent. I'd like to have the S8 AP3, but Ord means other weapons are snapshot, so not sure it'd have the value I want.
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Post by breng77 on Mar 6, 2013 14:30:06 GMT -5
Yeah I stuck to just the torrent. I ran mine With Tzeentch and Torrent for 160 points, I may end up finding I want the extra range from the plegm, but as you said it essentially negates the other guns.
You are right the Grimior is Random, but when it works (which it does quite often) it is great. I may end up trying out the other rewards because just having S3 rending on your herald is kind of Meh. But getting 3++ (and I also had endurance on my sorcerer) up on my seekers meant I lost 5 to an entire necron armies worth of shooting. It really depends on terrain though, if you have ample cover it may not be needed. The way I look at it is it is more reliable than invisibility (for Daemons due to LD 8).
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Post by bob on Mar 6, 2013 23:41:25 GMT -5
Successful first test of the above list, modified a bit. Here's some more modification based on what seemed to work well... Tzeentch Herald (Lvl 3, Big Locus) Slaanesh Herald (Steed, Lesser & Greater, Big Locus) Karanak 17 Bloodletters (champ, lesser) 17 Daemonettes (champ, lesser) 17 Daemonettes (champ, lesser) 11 Horrors 11 Horrors 19 Seekers (champ, lesser) 15 Fleshhounds 2 Soul Grinders (Tzeentch, Torrent) Skullcannon Weaker vs. Fliers, but decided to see if the Cannon's ability to allow charging at Initiative thru cover would work...didn't try that part, but Ignoring Cover was pretty huge, and with it's range it's not too hard to keep it out of harm's way. Yes, the numbers of troops here and there are kind of random numbers...that's just the way it evolved.
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Post by bob on Mar 7, 2013 20:00:01 GMT -5
Here's on that is more for giggles than anything, but it MIGHT be really potent. Big benefit of this for competitive play is it's extreme...extreme builds do well most of the time. Oh, also, it should be fast to play.
-Bloodthirster (Exalted, Greater) -Lord of Change (Lvl 3, Exalted, Greater)
-11 Horrors -11 Horrors -15 Daemonettes (Champ, Lesser) -15 Daemonettes (Champ, Lesser)
-Daemon Prince (Tz, Wings, Armour, Lvl 3) -Daemon Prince (Tz, Wings, Armour, Lvl 3) -Daemon Prince (Tz, Wings, Armour, Lvl 3)
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Mar 8, 2013 1:45:16 GMT -5
I'd love to see Flying Circus with CSM allies... a Black Mace DP and a Heldrake for obnoxiousness Doesn't really look like there are any points for it, but it's a cool idea in my head. That Khorne cannon is deceptively brutal... or at least brutal when it's doubling out Invisibly Raveners!
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Post by Tim on Mar 8, 2013 5:42:41 GMT -5
Flying circus is good fun. And you've got the models to make it happen. And it's closer to a mono god build. I love to see that three headed doggie in here to get In the face of enemy psykers and take them out to give you some real dominance but you would lose the thirster. Maybe a lucky warp storm roll will do that for you.
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Post by bob on Mar 14, 2013 8:57:02 GMT -5
Still tweaking to make things work. Things I've noted: Seekers look really good on paper, but struggle to make it happen on the table. They die SO EASY. Just assaulting in to, then piling in thru terrain you'll lose 4-5 of them before they even swing! Of course the most obvious solution is the Locus that gives MTC, but for me the thing that really makes them work is the Herald with the Reroll Misses Locus that lets her pick out a character to challenge. It's the threat and potency of that the keeps me trying to include seekers, without that I'd drop them. I've found that of course the Seekers completely melt to incoming fire. A combat squad in rapid fire range is killing off 6 of them. I'm going to try to include the Grimoire to help this, but I suspect I'll find it a bit unforgivingly random...it will fail when I need it most, guaranteed 2 big fast units is not enough. Most folks can weather that, and there's little redundancy for failed charges...if I'm not tieing up the meanest things on thru 2, I'm done. Bigger picture, and this applies across the board to daemons as an almost completely assault oriented army, we're a fail against MSU. You either have to suck it up and go with multi-assaults which can be neutering, or you eat little pieces then get shot up. Soul Grinders I love, I don't really have any bad experiences with them. Sadly, they're too slow to fit in the theme I'm working on. I'm sure I'll have a rethink along the way that uses them, but for this "holy fast in your face beatstick" idea, they have to go. I have no answer for Land Raiders. I have no answer for Fliers. Slaanesh DPs with the 2d6 S6 ranged attacks might be an answer for both, but either require huge investment in KoS which I dislike or take up both FOC. This is another list concept I intend to try, but that's another thing altogether. So, the super fast eat you on turn 2 list has evolved to this: Tzeentch Herald: Lvl 3; Exalted Locus; Exalted Gift Slaanesh Herald: Exalted Locus; Steed; Greater Gift Khorne Herald: Exalted Locus; Jugger; Lesser Gift Khorne Herald: Exalted Locus; Jugger; Lesser Gift 16 Horrors 10 Daemonettes 10 Daemonettes 10 Bloodletters 10 Bloodletters 18 Fleshhounds 18 Fleshhounds 19 Seekers (Champ, Lesser) <edit: Woops, forgot this key piece!> Skullcannon Khorne Heralds ride with the Hounds, enjoying their Scout and giving them Hatred. Lesser gifts for the Axe of Khorne (AP2 is gold). I've included them to really ensure the Hounds kill the shit out of what they charge, and to give a bit of AP to help deal with MEQ and TEQ...not to mention the decent chance of a Killing Blow from the Axes. Tz Herald will take the Grimoire, intending to buff the Seekers do they don't suck quite as much. Of course joins the Horrors for S6 fun. Slaanesh Herald will likely just take the Super Etherblade for S5 AP2 fun. It's light on the troops, I guess...but has almost 3 times as money bodies as I used to have! Moreover, with the Beasts and Seekers charging turn 2 (turn 1 if you go first...something I learned last night!) enemy will probably be a bit distracted from shooting at the tiny Troop units gimping around. Not really Tzeentchy anymore, is it?
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Post by bob on Mar 14, 2013 9:19:41 GMT -5
Had a game last night that this evolved from vs. Neil...he was using 2 IG blobs, 2 Manticores, 2 Colossus, 3 Vendettas, 2 Grey Hunters, 2 Rune Priests. I had something like the above, but with Karanak instead of one of the Khorne Heralds, and Crushers instead of one of the Hounds.
He went first, Manticore killed half the Horrors and the Tz Herald. Other Manticore and Colossus missed...lucky. Lasguns has moved retrograde and I hid behind terrain a lot, so no damage from smallarms.
We both remembered that I could charge in the bottom of the first turn after having scouted in the bottom of the first turn. I got Crushers/Karanak in to one blob; hounds/herald in to the other. Seekers ran up to be ready for turn 2, thru terrain, lost 4 of them. Hounds killed all but a handful of their blob, including the rune priest, the rest ran off the table. The crushers dished out good first turn damage, but didn't have the staying power of the Hounds (5 of them has 15 wounds; 20 hounds has 40...go figure); turn 2 he shot up the hounds and the seekers a bit. my turn 2 seekers took out a manticore and pcs; khorne herald split off and took out other manticore; hounds took out the colossi; top of 3 the crushers and karanak died off, leaving less than 20 guardsmen. They got charged by the remnants of the seekers (only 3 left after all the dangerous terrain and the grey hunters that walked on from reserve) and the hounds, hounds eating the overwatch. the blob died. Khorne Herald killed the other PCS. Vendettas picked on dogs a bit and killed the skullcannon. We stopped at this point, as it was 11pm and we were both sleepy and sloppy. I'd given up 5 kp, he'd given up 8. I'd pick up 2 more easy, he'd pick up quite a few from vendettas...probably get the seekers and the khorne herald, maybe one of the troop units.
Noteworthy was how little the Seekers did...they lost half their number to dangerous terrain tests just trying to get somewhere to do something constructive. Grimoire died turn 1, so no idea if it would help.
Horrors did nothing.
Nettes and Letters had deepstruck on. By end of turn 3 they'd done nothing, but were well positioned to do something to his GH as they were walking on....at least 2 of them were.
Not an overwelming victory, but at least it wasn't the ass wooping I'd been expecting.
Maybe drop the Seekers and Slaanesh Herald for a third unit of Hounds?
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Post by Tim on Mar 15, 2013 9:32:00 GMT -5
Sounds like it went alright. Nice to get some testing in and not just theory.
I say go for more hounds. Daemons can't be scared of terrain and you don't want to give free points to you opponent like that on those seekers. Plus that special character daemon doggie is tasty.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Mar 15, 2013 10:35:17 GMT -5
I think it does what you want it too, but has lots of holes... there will be many problems and skew lists that you will struggle to counter (can anything in your army even hurt a Land Raider?), and with 40k being so rock-paper-scissors that makes skew match ups more likely. Across a 6-game tournament, you're almost guaranteed to player Necron flyer spam, Iron Arm Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, Land Raider spam, Paladins, etc.
Could you work something shootier? Soul Grinders, skull cannon, lots of horrors and flamers for pew pew? Get a unit of hounds/Seekers to play countercharge, or push forward aggressively mid-late game?
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Post by bob on Mar 15, 2013 11:10:10 GMT -5
Like I said in email, there is no real shooting in the codex. Trying to make it in to a shooty army is less constructive than trying to make nids a shooty army. Soul Grinders are BS3. 3 S7 AP4 shots at BS3 aren't scaring anyone. Skullcannons are nice for their special rule, but are AP5. It's not scaring anyone either. Tzeentch Chariots are rife with problems...can only fire if it moves 6", av10 open topped, warpflame rule. Flamers are 23 points for a s4 template. this isn't scaring anyone either, and with the new range restrictions on wound allocation, borders on worthless. And Horrors have to worry about runes of warding, rune priests, shadow in the warp, and deny the witch...then hand out FNP like it's candy. No, you can not make a shooty daemon army, at least in the current environment. So if you have to make a melee army, it better be the fastest hardest hitting melee army you can make, right? That's where I am now
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Post by breng77 on Mar 18, 2013 6:49:28 GMT -5
I agree with Bob on this and I love grinders in the new book. But they need to be moving forward, shooting and then assaulting, Screamers (which having used them in the new book I still think are very good.) can provide some pseudo shooting with slash attacks, but your power is all in CC.
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