sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Apr 24, 2013 21:09:03 GMT -5
The whole thing. All of it. Every word. Read it again. Yes, it's a lot. And this is why I'm not digging WM/H...you have to know EVERYTHING that your enemy is capable of doing to account for it. You don't know who your enemy is going to be, or what he's going to be bringing, so you have to know it all. Otherwise get ready for, "Ok, I use my feat, and this guy uses his special power and now this guy ignores your whole army and walks over here and kills your caster. Good game. Want to go again?" Like tricksy Hammerhead overwatch, or Warp Storm shenanigans? ;P Bob and Jason bring up a good point -- unlike Flames or 40k, where the rules overlap a lot and it's easy to say "This unit has a bunch of power weapons" or "This unit has AT4", in Warmachine it's really wacky special rules like "My model gets to move after you've hit it" or "ranged attacks targeting those guys automatically miss" or "surprise my entire army can shoot through your entire army and kill your general dead!" It takes a little bit of experience to wrap your head around the tricks your opponents can use -- fortunately, if you're only playing within our local meta it's not too bad. You'll get the hang of what your most frequent opponents bring. Part of what can make this frustrating is the caster kill win condition -- you can lose all of your models, but if your warlock manages to kill the enemy warlock then you win the game (this has happened to me a bunch of times since getting back into WM this spring!). I kind of like that dynamic though, as it means you're always in the game -- it's not like 40k, where it can be 2.5 hours of you getting completely steam rolled off the table and you know that victory is hopeless. Can make some games more fun (hail mary caster kills can be sweet, it's like trying to solve a puzzle every turn -- can I kill the enemy general?), but can also be a little frustrating. Definitely takes some getting used to. WM/H games are lighter for me, so I don't tend to mind losing at the last second too much -- I'd much prefer that than a 2.5 hour slog where my loss is more or less a foregone conclusion from turn 2. I love the game, but it's not perfect -- don't want to be one of those annoying ZOMG WARMACHINE IS A BILLION TIMES BETTER THAN DUMB 40K folks. 40k is still awesome, they're just very different. And as Tom noted, there are generally a few releases for every faction each year -- similar to Flames, unlike 40k where you have to wait for armies to be updated wholesale. There also is less customization in WM/H than FoW or 40k -- your basic troop unit is always a basic troop unit, no options for different weapons or sergeants or tank upgrades or whatever. This is a bummer in some respects; I love customizing special 40k models or finding sweet load outs that work. But, it makes it easier for me to buy models -- it's not like you buy a box of Terminators and have to decide which weapon selections to give them (and if the load out you chose sucks in 2 years, the unit isn't good anymore). You buy a box of Blighted Nyss, and they're always a unit of Blighted Nyss. You also don't need a billion duplicates of the same thing, you can get one of each unit/solo and be in good shape. I like that aspect of building a collection. The Vassal module for Warmachine is great, I have as much fun with it as I do a physical game. You can use that to try out purchases (or get games in when real life is too busy to make it to the store).
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Apr 24, 2013 21:30:57 GMT -5
It almost seems like once you get to the level of play where people are fielding lists that are basically one big special abilities combo to kill the other caster, it loses a lot of what made it all fun when you're first starting out. Brian does make a good point though that 'at least it's over with quick' as opposed to 40K where you can be having to play a whole 2 hours after you've already known you lost. Although, personally I've never felt there's much more chance to come from behind, at least against experienced players. Could be that I'd never played enough to get really good at caster killing or to know what the different casters weaknesses and vulnerabilities were
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Post by bob on Apr 24, 2013 22:16:17 GMT -5
Ahh, over with quick.
Something else that irritates me.
Yeah, I'm looking at it from a competitive play "I drove 2 hours and spent $100 to go to a tournament" perspective...
I don't want to spend $200 and weeks (months...hell, years!) painting an army to go play a game and be dead in 5 minutes because I'm too busy (or lazy!) to know the rules of the other guy's models as well as my own.
But wait, there's more!
In competitive play, the turns are timed. You guys that think you're the shit at WM now, try playing with SR time limits and watch how unfun things suddenly become!
Playing light at the store, sure, different....but go to a tourney and you line up a caster kill, run out of time for your turn, and yours dies to a combo you didn't know existed.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fine game, it just takes a different mind set that I'm not in.
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Post by hivemindbob on Apr 24, 2013 23:03:38 GMT -5
I'll agree with bob that it's a diffrent mindset, I'll agree that its more or less a bunch of special rules, I'll even agree that Steam Roller Time limits take a lot of fun out of the game! But the combos and crazy synergies are in my opinion make it so much fun. The synergies that you intend on using that can be shattered by some unexpected manuver, or special move. It causes you to think on your feet and yeah, occasionally, it requires that Hail Mary Caster charge. I completly agree that once you get to higher point levels where you need to think on your feet, Steamroller makes you do a lot more thinking then a timed turn in 40k, IMO. And... I don't know where I was going with this rant.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Apr 25, 2013 1:32:51 GMT -5
Yeah, they're different games with different mind sets... But they're still games, so play what you enjoy competitive WM/H is more imposing than other games, w/r/t timed turns and knowing all your rules (though it's worth noting that at higher levels of play, random unpredictable caster kills rarely happen -- most games are won by scenario/attrition, just like other systems). What I like about the game is the fact that we don't have a top tier, super competitive meta -- it's still pretty fresh. To me, at least! I know I'm not good enough to seriously compete in tournaments, makes it more relaxing: just enjoy getting a bunch of games in at once while facing new factions/casters. I take competitive 40k too seriously, and make it unfun for myself. Both (and I would say all) games have pro's and cons. Fortunately they're not mutually exclusive, and I can play WM when I find 40k stale (and shelve Khador for a few months when the new Tyranid codex comes out!)
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Apr 25, 2013 6:22:36 GMT -5
I've never done a steamroller with timed turns, but from what Bob's describing, they don't sound like much fun. Yeah that's what got me to stop playing WM last time was when I was in the league and driving an hour every time to get to the place and then losing turn 2. Still, if I'm going to be losing in a completely one sided game (which I tend to often, unfortunately), I do appreciate WM's quick ripping off of the bandaid as opposed to WFB or 40K, because then I can at least go get a sandwich or something before next round
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Post by dante on Apr 25, 2013 13:21:02 GMT -5
I think some people here are forgetting about page 5...
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Post by warpriest on Apr 25, 2013 14:30:31 GMT -5
For the record, I play (mainly) Menoth, Skorne and Cygnar.
I started playing Warmachine with the Quickstart rules and cardboard bases before battleboxes were available. No one knew anything about it, and there was no one to tell us what was good and bad about the rules, and which models were great and which ones sucked. We played and it was a blast.
But as with any game, over time there will be people that choose to suck the fun out of it. These are the Win at all Costs (WAAC) crowd, the argue over every measurement, rule, and line of sight determination crowd, the "I'll boil it down for you and tell you what you should play and how, and if you don't follow my advice you suck" crowd, etc.
40k and WM/H are very similar games in this regard, that humans play them, and human nature doesn't change.
I like WM/H far better than 40k, for many reasons. People can argue forever about which is better, but it comes down to personal preference, so I won't waste time detailing why I like one over the other.
My recommendation for anyone new is don't get overwhelmed and think you have to know everything. Don't think that you have to win right away to prove your manhood. Let whoever you're playing know that you're new, and you're trying to learn the game.
A lot of the complaints I've seen about WM/H in this thread can be mitigated by both players being on the same page about the purpose of the game. If you're going to a 64 person Deathclock Steamroller tournament, and you've never played, you'll be miserable. If you're playing to have fun, and you are both aware of each others experience level, it can be very enjoyable. Both parties just need to make sure they aren't keeping secrets so they can catch the other by surprise.
WM/H is an open information game. You're supposed to be able to read your opponents cards whenever you want. I'm always telling my opponent what my models do and what options I have, and what I might do, special rules they should keep in mind. At least in a friendly game.
At the minimum read your opponent's feat, and get an idea of the spell list. Try to keep in mind threat ranges (a model that can move 6" and shoot 12" has an 18" shooting threat range. A model that can move 4, has reach, and charges, and can get a 2" bonus from a spell, has 11" threat range). Then just play and have fun, and try not to get frustrated at the left hooks you don't see coming. Because after awhile you'll see them coming and be able to avoid them, and counter with your own.
Who's up for a game next weekend? I'm going to make an extra effort to get there, since it's been over a month since I've had a chance to play.
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Post by bob on Apr 25, 2013 15:24:38 GMT -5
Wow.
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Post by lanceradvanced on Apr 27, 2013 8:22:34 GMT -5
Just to set the whole record Straight.. I usually -play- cryx, I've come to enjoy Skarre's playstyle, and being able to build my army as I go along appeals to the nervous nellie in me...
But..
I also have a reasonably large Cygnar and Circle forces, and Lots of Merc and Minions, and I traded off my leigon for the beginings of a Trollblood list, and I have shards of Khador as well ...
if you want to borrow, just ask...
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Apr 27, 2013 21:53:04 GMT -5
Thanks for all the awesome advice and analysis, this group is always very welcoming to a beginner. I'm really looking forward to getting my stuff and start painting....So many games to play, so little time.
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