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Post by gretchinmike on May 26, 2013 20:34:11 GMT -5
So after going to the double tournament today and having my ass handed to me, I'm realizing that I need to start winning games without nob bikers, because there are games where they get murdered with ease. Anyway, I want to get an idea as to where I'm going with dark angels, and I think I've got an idea that I like. It won't be #1, but I hope it will be able to beat the general public at tournaments. Anyway, here it is.
HQ Azrael - 215
Librarian mastery level 2, divination, space marine bike - 110
Ravenwing Command Squad, standard of devastation, apothecary, grenade launcher - 215 *I'm not sure if I want the apothecary, since he is rather expensive for just a unit of 3 guys.
Troops 6 man Ravenwing attack squadron, 2 meltaguns - 181
6 man Ravenwing attack squadron, 2 meltaguns - 181
6 man Ravenwing attack squadron, 2 meltaguns - 181
5 deathwing terminators, 3 pairs of lightning claws, 2 thunder hammer stormshields, Cyclone missile launcher - 255
5 deathwing terminators, 3 pairs of lightning claws, 2 thunder hammer stormshields, Cyclone missile launcher - 255
5 deathwing terminators, 3 pairs of lightning claws, 2 thunder hammer stormshields, Cyclone missile launcher - 255
Heavy Support
Predator - 75
Predator - 75
This list lacks a lot of models, and hopefully it can make up for that in speed. The bikes can be good, but require the terminators to assist them to win. I feel as if I'm lacking anti tank, and I can't think of something to fill that in. The more I think about this list the less I like it however I realize that ravenwing/deathwing tends to be successful, and I think I'm going to have to go with that to build a winning list. Be as critical as you want, since I don't own much of this yet so it won't affect me.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 26, 2013 22:32:55 GMT -5
Hmmm... I think you have enough anti-tank. I think you're seriously lacking in anti-infantry, and since 6th dropped I've been seeing a lot more infantry on the table. You have no way to handle flyers, and no way to "tank" them either (Heldrakes will love all those 3+ armor save bikers who don't get cover saves). None of your stuff really wants to sit back and hold objectives, which makes it hard to win games (200+ point troop units can't waste their time holding down the backfield). I'd gladly pit my Tyranids against this; for whatever that's worth... Iron Arm monstrous creatures can walk through your expensive units, and your model count is so low that my crappy gaunt screens will pull down your more expensive models. I looove Terminators and think that they're badass, but if you're considering them purely from a competitive standpoint I think it's hard to justify them (except one tough as nails melee unit). Except for Paladins, but even then that's really just a giant 800 point skew unit. I've never liked Bikers as a competitive choice, and some units can really mess them up (low AP ignores cover stuff... Tau with markerlights, heldrakes, etc). Banner of Devastation is the one that gives you extra bolter shots, right? You have what, 20 bolters in the army? Not sure that those are points well invested. Competitive 40k can be a slippery slope -- you can quickly get caught up in keeping your army hyper optimized, and 4 Tervigons/3 Heldrakes/40 GKSS/5 Necron Flyers/120 Kroot later, your army can still be invalidated by a new codex. It takes a lot to build (and buy) a competitive 40k army. Once you start, it can be hard to slam on the brakes and settle for something that's less than super optimal, even if it's what you own or includes units that you like. I struggle with that, and can be part of why I'm grumpy about 40k -- I get too caught up in being competitive, and make it unfun for myself. 40k tournaments and playing great games against excellent players can still be a blast, and I do enjoy the aspect of the game... just be careful with the kind of head space you get into. It can really burn you out. Just some advice Also, don't forget that winning games of 40k comes down to you being a good player as much as it does your list. Your Ork lists are by no means bad, Mikey, and you already own the models. Orks may not be the best, or even top-tier codex, but I'm of the opinion that they're still pretty damn good. Nob Bikers have hard counters, but so does everything else in the game. 120 Ork Boyz + 30 Lootas + flyers (or artillery, or Deff Dreads) can still be an excellent force, and I've seen great Ork armies of plenty of variations piloted by good players win tournaments (Ryan Sinnot of BFS is a great Ork player, and a really fun opponent!). To get better at 40k, you have to practice a lot -- play lots of games. You also have to lose a lot, and beat your face against some really excellent players... that's really how you learn and how you get better. That's how it happened for me, at least, and you're in luck because lots of the great Ordo gamers are not only fun to play but fun to lose to as well! Play more, practice more, lose more... I think your Orks definitely have the potential for success, and in my opinion you can make a more competitive list with them than you would with Dark Angels. Think about why your games went poorly this weekend, and try to prevent that in future games. Learn from your mistakes.
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on May 27, 2013 10:32:37 GMT -5
out of curiousity....what killed those Nob Bikers? and where can I get some?
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Post by apothecarybob on May 27, 2013 10:38:24 GMT -5
This is similar to the dark angel players dante and I faced last (spoiler, we tabled them). You should sacrifice a termi squad and a bike squad for some cheap PA marines to hold backfield objectives.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 27, 2013 13:59:30 GMT -5
Looking at the list above and thinking it over, I think it would be fun, but in no way effective against much of anything. I think I'm going to go with no terminators, but instead focus on the speed from ravenwing with some heavy fire from other stuff, I'll make a list later. I know for orks that I can win plenty of games, I just have to begin getting realistic as to what I can kill with the nobs, since that tends to result in the loss for myself, and I don't think it will be long until I can get to the point of at least placing in a gaming etc. tournament. Knowing that the orks can be effective, I want to start working with Dark Angels, and I don't have a single unit (besides scouts, but no one likes those) in the book that I dislike, so I think I can overcome the problem Brian had. With that though, marines are very different from orks so even if I come with the worlds best list, I'm still going to have issues. I understand I will lose with them, and I expect to, but the list is the first part I would like to hammer out because it's the thing I struggle with quite a bit. This list was originally modeled off of what Dante and Abob fought at the tournament, because Bobby said that it was pretty good, however now I've come to realize they got tabled at least 2 out of 3 games, so it isn't a great list for me to model. And tom, what killed the nob bikers? Steve did. Or at least that's what I believe Every game both our models are on the board they die or almost die, we have the bloodiest battles when we fight each other, and apparently that is the same for when we are on the same board. When I played you with them you had a more effective way of killing them than any other opponent, however I failed almost every save the entire day... Oh or a soul grinder, 6 spaw, a daemon prince and some other daemon unit of 10 will kill them...
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Post by zedsdead on May 28, 2013 12:48:53 GMT -5
Having played around with similar lists i find the termies and bikes tend to struggle in competitive games due to things such as the helldrake. duelwing is tough to field competitivly imho. However i think you can succeed.
Things i would consider.
Drop a termie squad and the preds.
Add a blob squad of 40-50 with 4-5 autocannons. If points allow give the sgts axes. Azzy will join this squad and give it a 4+ invuln Commander should be lord commisar to give squad stubborn. add axe if you can.
the command squad is sort of a hit or miss. The banner is nice but it makes you huddle around it to be effective. So its vulnerable to templates and blasts(watch out for helldrakes) Also the banner makes this squad the focus of your enemys shooting so i like running the apothicary. Also now the faq allows you to add 2 more bikes to the squad... i suggest you do that.
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Post by breng77 on May 28, 2013 13:24:04 GMT -5
I question the Lord Commisar, is he a back up in case Azzy dies? Azzy gives the blob Fearless, so why do you need stubborn, why not take a Primaris Psyker for Biomancy rolls?
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Post by aetios on May 28, 2013 14:38:44 GMT -5
I don't have my book in front of me here at work to compare costs, but I like the Ravenwing Knights better than the command squad. However, if you are gonna run the command squad I agree with Brian and say take a different banner. You just don't have enough bolt guns for the SoD. They have ones that are tailored for the bikes, so use one of those.
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Post by bob on May 28, 2013 16:34:30 GMT -5
I question the Lord Commisar, is he a back up in case Azzy dies? Azzy gives the blob Fearless, so why do you need stubborn, why not take a Primaris Psyker for Biomancy rolls? Because some Daemon jerk will come along with Beguilement and kill Azzy and the squad runs
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Post by sean on May 28, 2013 21:52:36 GMT -5
or a different jerk will come along and terrify the blob and sweep them.
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Post by breng77 on May 29, 2013 6:23:15 GMT -5
I guess, if you were really worried about that just take the Warlord Trait from DA that allows LD on 3D6 drop the highest. I also highly doubt a Slaanesh Herald is going to kill Azzy all that easily, Seems more likely that he will kill the Herald as any one hit that goes through from him is game over for that herald.
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Post by bob on May 29, 2013 8:27:00 GMT -5
I don't disagree, but there sure are a lot of ways to snipe characters out easily. Hell, a few squads of kroot will kill every IC in your army while the rest of the Tau army laughs and buys drinks for the Ethereal.
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Post by breng77 on May 29, 2013 14:01:47 GMT -5
At which point why bother with a commisar lord? Either way is fine I guess, but if you can snipe azzy out so can you snipe the commisar.
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Post by bob on May 29, 2013 17:06:58 GMT -5
do you bring one unit to deal with Land Raiders, or do you have redundancy? I'm with Ed, a Commisar is solid redundancy for minimal points.
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Post by bob on May 29, 2013 17:08:24 GMT -5
Now personally, I don't see a lot of DA builds that worry me...but there's one: Dev Banner + LRC spam
Throw some kind of command squad with the banner in a LRC, add 3 more LRC with some kind of troop in them. Shit out 96 TL S4 shots from 24" away and watch people struggle to kill your LRs from across the table. Manticores & Vendettas a problem, I suppose, but not much else!
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