captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Feb 15, 2016 21:06:35 GMT -5
So I want to make a British list that works. Kevin showed me some gloom and doom when he explained the horror show that will be a Carius list with meatbags, and I certainly agree. But I can't just take that as a Brit player lying down. And while I won't go so far as to build a list that could stop him (not that its possible) I will try to build something well rounded that's fun to play and gives me a chance to win.
I have all the ingredients for the following, and these lists all function differently. So if you're bored, and willing to throw in your two cents, I'd appreciate advice or commentary! I also need some help playtesting these.
List #1 - Motor Company - Confident Vet (some building and painting required)
CONFIDENT VETERAN INFANTRY COMPANY PLATOON QTY UNIT POINTS HEADQUARTERS Motor Company HQ p.3 2 2 Cmd Rifle team White scout car
COMBAT PLATOONS 1. Motor Platoon p.3 1 3 MG teams + mortar, piat, cmd MG team
2.Motor Platoon p.3 1 3 MG teams + mortar, piat, cmd MG team (both platoons have 2 passenger fired .50 cals each)
Scout Platoon p.4 2 3X UC's (one with an extra MG)
WEAPONS PLATOONS Motor Mortar Platoon p.5 1 Cmd Rifle team Observer Rifle team ML 3" Mk II Mortar 120
SUPPORT PLATOONS Armoured Platoon 3 X Comets Armoured Platoon 3 X Comets Nachtjäger (Digital Exclusive) ‑ British Late‑War ‑ Platoon Count: 6
My analysis: Highly Mobile, Mechanized, so it defends against armor. I have 6 AT14 fast tanks as anti-armor assets. I have mortars for pinning and smoke, and 2 motor platoons that can hold objectives. My concern is that assaulting will be an issue, and I will need a lot of finesse and luck with terrain to be able to successfully attack a prepared enemy. I've never played with motor platoons before, and I know they are fragile, but they do cost me nearly 50 pts less per platoon, allowing me to bring some pretty tough support.
List #2 - Airlanding out of Nachjager Digital (Fearless Veterans)
HQ - 2 cmd SMG teams
1 - Airlanding platoon - 8 teams, (1 piat, 1 lt mortar and 6 Rifler MGs)
2 - Airlanding platoon - 8 teams, (1 piat, 1 lt mortar and 6 Rifler MGs)
3 - Airlanding AT platoon 4 6pdrs (late)
4 - 2 Churchill VI's 1 Churchill IV
5 - 2 Churchill VI's 1 Churchill IV
6 - 4 pck howitzers
analysis - I have much meatier assaulting platoons, and the Churchills can back up the paras. I can night attack, and the churchills don't suffer for it since they are moving slowly anyhow. There is no recon, and this list is pretty slow. In missions where they have to dig out people without the benefit of night cover, or race to the other side of the board, they will pay for it.
List #3 - Armored Cars (obviously)
HQ - 4 Staghounds (3 of which count as a platoon with a 2iC in command
1. 2 Daimlers 1 dingo
2. 2 Daimlers 1 dingo
3. 2 Shermans 2 Fireflys
4. 4 25 pdrs
5. 2 5.5in guns
AOP + limited typhoons
2 AT 15 assets, and enough aircover to cause problems for clusters of tanks or troops
Artillery to help clear the way for the cars....but they are not going to be assaulting anyone. There just aren't enough points here to make it with all the support I need. I could dump the staghounds and the 5.5s for another platoon of Shermans and fireflys? This is fast, but I think it doesn't match up well with much at all. Upside? I don't need to paint anything.
List #4 - 51st Highland Division (Overlord) - Reluctant veterans
HQ Rifle team and bagpiper
1. Full Rifle Platoon 2. Full Rifle Platoon 3. Full Rifle Platoon 4. 4 6pdrs 5. 4 3" mortars 6. 3 UC's (recon) 7. Churchills (one is a VII) 8. Churchills (one is a VII) (applique armor on all the rest.)
The highest direct AT I have is 11...but I have two front armor 13 tanks, Night Attack, and 8 platoons. The Crocs are pretty expensive. and the 17pdr SPs are always so fragile, they never really pay for their points. Not sure about the reluctant rating as well, but These guys seem to have done well. and that's a lot of vet troops for 1420.
Let me know what you think?
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Post by Lord Ærynn on Feb 16, 2016 15:22:58 GMT -5
I haven't come up with anything better...
I think the first list is your best bet. I don't think dragging Churchills across the table is going to do you any favors. At least the Comets are light Panthers and can actually fight anything less than a King Tiger with relative ease. You'll really have to play the table well if you face another armored company, taking advantage of the speed over the lack of armor.
I had looked at the Commando list from Nachtjager (Digital Exclusive) and think the list has some power, but you can only take 1 platoon of Comets, replacing the second with a platoon of M10s with 17pdrs. Though, the Commando platoons are a little stronger than the motor rifle platoons, hit on a 2+ in assaults, are fearless vets, you can customize them before each game, and have mission tactics. Also, you can have a recon group of real armoured cars, rather than UCs. You would, however, only get 5 platoons, rather than 6+.
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Post by Col Sanders on Feb 16, 2016 16:19:20 GMT -5
One of my favorites....... British Armoured Recce (11th Armoured Division).... Use mortars against Infantry.... Luttrell for smoke.....
Tank Company, from Market Garden, page 112
Armoured Recce Squadron HQ - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV (145 pts)
Armoured Recce Platoon - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Challenger A30 (335 pts)
Armoured Recce Platoon - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Challenger A30 (335 pts)
Armoured Recce Platoon - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Challenger A30 (260 pts)
Scout Car Platoon - Command Humber Scout Car, 2x Humber Scout Car (70 pts)
Luttrells Close Support Platoon - Warrior Walter Luttrell in Cromwell VI CS, Cromwell VI CS (110 pts)
Heavy Mortar Platoon - Command Rifle, Observer Rifle, 4x ML 4.2” mortar (155 pts) - Troop Carrier, Lloyd Carrier per mortar (5 pts)
1415 Points, 6 Platoons
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Feb 17, 2016 16:51:35 GMT -5
I think the 11th is a good list, but I suck at playing trained armor. It tends to die too quickly for me, and I never am able to get into combat fast enough. I bleed platoons. That could be a good swarm list, with nearly 13 tanks starting on the table in a half on half off scenario.
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Post by Col Sanders on Feb 17, 2016 17:14:48 GMT -5
I knew the list wasn't a good fit for you.....
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Mar 8, 2016 22:13:23 GMT -5
Thanks to Kevin, I've been able to play my Comets list Motor Company twice...and lost badly once and in a close game once. 2 games does not a scientific experiment make, but it has me doubting this list can be competitive. Which is unfortunate, because I've just finished assembling, magnetizing .50cals on halftracks, and base coating everything in primer. They'll look awesome when they're done I'm sure, but they might have to wait for a new point value or a new meta to get the tools they need to work?
In Game 1, I Night attacked. And despite having all my platoons on the board, I couldn't crack Carius and his meatbags. The 3" mortars don't dig people out, they pin and smoke. The motor platoons can't really assualt anything since they are only 6 stands, and there are only 6 very expensive tanks on the table to do anything else. Against Kevin's list, they had almost no targets. And in fairness to Kevin, his dice were attrocious. I think Carius missed his "autokill" shots somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 times. With even sub par dice, he should have wiped my comets 10 turns before he actually did.
I think the mission did me no favors, and I think Kevin's list did what it is supposed to do. I look back at the game, and don't really know what I could have done differently. If I hadn't night attacked, I would have been sniped from turn one. But night attacking forces my tanks to lose their speed and my infantry can only move 8" in their halftracks in the dark. Bottom line, I don't think that against that List, with my force, and that mission....there was a real chance for me to win that game. That's fine! It taught me something, and I am hugely appreciative of Kevin for helping me learn that lesson here.
In Game 2, everything seemed to be going well. I elected to defend, hoping it would gain me the advantage of having my tanks pop from ambush, and I could wreck some halftracks. And wreck them I did. But despite savaging the meat of Kevin's bulked out German mech list, Ruedel the German struedel showed up to destroy my Comets with no problem. and a horrifying rocket bombardment destroyed my 1ic and a mortar platoon, meaning I had to take a company morale by the bottom of turn 4. Which I failed. Small platoons, and only 6 platoons total, means I have a very fragile force. I suppose I could have kept both infantry on the table and waited for the tanks, but then Kevin would have had no reason to hang back with the halftracks, and could have armored assaulted the hell out of me. There is no room in the list for AA.
I was thinking that the Recce is worse than useless in this list. I usually take it to stop ambushes and lift gone to ground...but I'm never really wanting to attack with this list. So do I just take some AA or some more assaulty meat? I can't get a lot for 90 points. But I might be better off. The other alternative is that I drop a platoon of Comets. But then the hitting power of the list goes away. and the 3 comets become target number one for every single thing my opponent has on the table.
After all this hand wringing, I may be coming to the conclusion that this list will not work at 1420. I have some good options at 1750 or 1900, but 1420 might be a no go. What do you think Kevin? Do you agree? Be cruel, I don't want to drive 2 1/2 hours round trip for 2 days in a row in april to get my ass handed to me for 6 games. I keep telling myself I will win against medium tank lists and infantry hordes, but I don't know that I'll see any of those.
Here is my other option:
50th Con-Vet out of Overlord
HQ - 2 Rifle teams
Platoons 1- Full Rifle 2- Full Rifle 3- Full Rifle 4- UCs w xtra HUll MG 5- Wasp Carriers 6-Breaching Group w 3 Shermans and 2 platoons of 2 AVREs each (1 platoon for deployment, 3 once on the table) 7-4X25pdrs 8-4X5.5" guns AOP
8 Platoons for deployment, 10 once they are all on the table. No Crocs but a Breaching group, so I am auto-attack, and can fight at Dawn in non-free for all missions. Wasps, Tanks and Artillery can march up the table and blow dug in teams away, and the artillery, 8 guns strong can blast the pants off massed tanks, or pound infantry to dust. over the 9 platoon limit means I don't suffer a loss of a point if I win and lose a platoon, no really weak platoons.
I think this is a solid list. It wasn't what I originally wanted to play, but I have all the models ready to go and I'll have some fun with it possibly. What do you think? because If I'm going to change it up, I wanted to get a few games playtesting it before I headed off to Manchester
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Post by polpotsucked on Mar 12, 2016 12:05:54 GMT -5
Hey tommy
Greg here. Now, I make no claims to be an expert on Brits. I do not play as them and only gone against them a handful.
I run reds a lot and some Hungarians-- including LW Turans which are vaguely similar to short gun Shermans so a little comparable.
My two cents.
if you are really looking to be competitive w Brits, I think you have to go the con/vet foot list.
The strengths of Brits usually the solid foot and artillery. That list has that. I personally would always avoid reluctant. Having played against many reluctant German lists, it seems really really frustrating for the guy running the list. (Unless KTs or jagds) They never unpin, they won't assault, etc-- just seems to me a drag and by end of the day, who wants a list that never got up to do a damn thing? Maybe I over state the drag of reluctant-- I'm spoiled and seldom run anything but fearless reds. Lol (except for my su76 horde and that's only because it only comes as con and I love the su76)
All that said, run the list you think will be fun but I know you also want competitive.
The one thing I will say on Brit tanks is that freakin challenger is a monster if you have those.
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Post by Lord Ærynn on Mar 12, 2016 16:27:00 GMT -5
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Post by polpotsucked on Mar 12, 2016 16:37:15 GMT -5
I like this list. That looks like a strong Brit list. Nice foot w piats to keep tanks honest. The comets and can put enough shots out to worry iv hordes or tankovy. Big guns to take on kings.
But the money question-- does it look fun to you?
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Mar 12, 2016 22:10:53 GMT -5
This looks better than what I've been playing around with. The arty is enough to do more than just pin and smoke. The Bofors are enough to stop an airblitz, and help to serve as a throwaway platoon when not facing any aircraft. Also, the infantry platoons can actually fight it out in an assault. It's deeply ironic that the motor company list, which is designed to keep up with the tanks, isn't really much better at it than the infantry is. The motor platoons are worse than useless.
I think I might try this with Rod tomorrow and see how it plays in a game or two. Thanks Kevin!
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Post by Col Sanders on Mar 13, 2016 10:57:04 GMT -5
As a German Tank player, I would rather play against your list than Kevin's list.... But Kevin's list is Fragile...
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Post by Col Sanders on Mar 13, 2016 18:10:33 GMT -5
But at 1420 all LW lists are fragile.....
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captainecho
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Post by captainecho on Mar 13, 2016 22:18:25 GMT -5
I had the pleasure of playtesting Kevin's suggested list against a German Fearless trained Tank company. 4 platoons. 3 Panthers, 5 Panzer IVJ's 4 Mobile Wagon AA guns, and a platoon of Panzer Grenadiers with MG Panzerfausts. No artillery.
I was surprised by how few Rod got for the points involved. But it made sense generally.
I took Kevin's suggested list.
Infantry Company
1ic +2ic
Full Rifle Full Rifle 4 Comets 2 Bofors SP 4 25pdrs 2 5.5" guns
6 platoons
Because they are trucks with awkward Layout, the Bofors are worse than useless. their only job is to serve as a platoon to hold in reserve or to conduct one round of AA fire before going up in flames. We played Hasty Attack, and I chose to defend. Both Artillery platoons deployed, and I held the comets in immediate ambush.
I dropped them on the undefended objective, and Rod's reserves came in on turn 1. I had several rounds of very ineffective long range shooting with the Comets, while they were eventually eliminated from Panther and Panzer IV shots. The Comets only bailed 3 tanks in the course of 3 turns. The artillery however, wrecked an entire 5 tank platoon of Panzer IV's, and took out 2 Panther tanks (1 in direct fire because Rod was a little careless) My infantry came in and dug in on the objective, and despite some lucky shooting and an assault that pushed them back for a turn, Rod's troops were decimated and forced to run....but not before I killed or routed every one of his 4 platoons. Fearless troops tend to stick around awhile.
The punching power of the list is the Artillery. They did almost all the killing. The Comets were useless. Since Rod only had 4 platoons, I may have been better off launching a night attack. With darkness falling, the artillery could be kept in reserve along with the Bofors. Which would leave me with 2 infantry platoons getting an infiltration move in the dark, and the comets to support them and get into position. He would only have 2 platoons on the table until turn 3 at the earliest. He said he would have left the Panthers and the AA on the table, not a bad choice I think. I'll have to see how this list does on the attack. I think its better equipped than the motor company by far. And the Comets, while not as great as I'd hoped, still draw a ton of attention while the artillery can destroy everything.
In the end, I managed to win 5-2 losing only the Comets. And I think this list has potential against a variety of threats. I do hate the prospect of the fragile 2 gun 5.5" battery, but at 1420, as Jim says, everything is a little fragile.
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Post by polpotsucked on Mar 14, 2016 7:04:50 GMT -5
Yeah, except for maybe some Soviet platoons and some lists, I think the 1420 pt limit means lists are almost as much about minimizing your weaknesses or hiding them sometimes as about finding overwhelming strengths. Most especially is running vets.
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