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Post by bob on Apr 17, 2009 11:03:57 GMT -5
An interesting thought-process....the game's movement mechanics make it relatively easy to limit the movement options of enemy things on large bases (chariots, monsters, etc) warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193197
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Post by shasoevan on Apr 18, 2009 5:16:35 GMT -5
Some good info.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Apr 22, 2009 15:13:00 GMT -5
Alright, played vs. Eric on Monday and got my butt handed to me (those lizardfolk are tough!). Had an awesome time though, any game vs. Eric is a good one and I am definitely enjoy learning the new rules system of Fantasy. Now, I don't plan on changing my list around just yet (Bob might shoot me ) as I really need more practice before I go advocating changes. But I did have some questions... 1) As Eric and James pointed out to me, I have the MoS in my list. If you haven't gotten the rant from me yet, I HATE SLAANESH. Bleh. Definitely my least favorite chaos god. However, as others have mentioned... Mark of Slaanesh is probably the best mark in the whole WoC book as it makes your units immune to panic, fear, and terror for a very low cost. However... we gotta look at why/what I'm playing. I certainly don't plan on going to highly competitive tournaments or even being a competitive Fantasy player! I like the system, and for now I just want to learn it and have fun. While MoS is awesome, I think I'd rather lean towards something more fluffy/fun than competitive at this point. I don't want to cripple myself and be incapable of ever winning a game with a terrible list either, but small things like the Marks and stuff... I think I can take the hit to efficiency for fun there. I'm contemplating the MoT for the 6+ ward save, which might save me from some of those nasty armor ignoring spells. I also like the fluff behind Tzeentch a lot as well... however I could simply leave the majority of my force undivided. What are your guys' thoughts? 2) As stated before, I now have my own Giant. And quite frankly, it's a pretty cool model I'm not sure how good they are on the field, but I definitely plan on sneaking him in there. From my understanding, Giants are best used as "anvils" cuz their stubborn and have some good staying power, correct? Do you think the giant would be a good substitute to my Marauder block (which isn't going to do it's job as well without the MoS, and even so I don't really like the models...) Just an idea. 3) Trolls are really fun, I liked them a lot. But looking at my options, Ogres with Great Weapons cost the same as the trolls. The Ogres have better strength, better leadership, and aren't stupid (cheaper models too if I convert the plastic ones). The Trolls have the Copious Vomit ability (which saved my butt vs. the Skink priest, as it's an automatic S5 hit that ignores armor saves) as well as regeneration, which makes them a bit more resilient than the simple 5+ armor save of the Ogres. Thoughts? 4) Last one What's everyone's views on special characters? I have a feeling it's going to be pretty negative, and I doubt I would actually use any. But some of the Chaos ones caught my eye (The Marauder hero guy is cool because he can make a unit come on from the table behind you, which is awesome! Throgg the Troll King is a nice big Troll with some cool abilities for a good price tage, might make a good general. Some of the Lord's are sweet, Galrauch looks like he'd make an okay stand in for the level 4 Tzeentch Demon Prince. Kholek, the Shaggoth Lord, is by far my favorite guy in the book. Not sure if his high price tag is too much for his badass-ery though...) So yeah. Just a few ramblings, looking to get some feedback from you guys and just some cool ideas. The usual
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Post by shasoevan on Apr 22, 2009 17:13:45 GMT -5
On monday Jasons giant was not a very good anvil. That was beacuse I had 12 str 5 attacks at WS 6.
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Post by bob on Apr 22, 2009 19:55:07 GMT -5
Doesn't matter how many wounds you do to him, Evan...he's Stubborn, so is always testing on his Ld, which is 10, even if you do 5 wounds, outnumber, have 4 ranks, 3 from flags, flank, and rear...he's still going to pass 92% of the time. Him running was decidedly unlucky.
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Post by shasoevan on Apr 23, 2009 5:46:28 GMT -5
I didn't mean for Ld testing. With the str 5 it was not that hard to wound, so It would only have taken 1 to 2 more turns of fighting even if it didn't flee.
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Post by bob on Apr 23, 2009 7:55:47 GMT -5
Holding you there for 3 turns then...he's done his job as an anvil: taken your charge, not died, not run (unless Ordo luck applies), and set your troops up for a nice flank charge.
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Apr 23, 2009 11:53:50 GMT -5
My last three attempts to use a giant have not been successful at all. "Barney" charged the swordmasters, did nothing, and then turned and fled three inches, putting the swordmasters an inch from my character-less chariot's flank. It fled an inch or two more than the giant from the following charge. Previous to that, my zombified dogs of war giant went 6 rounds of combat with a unit of marauders while only causing a single wound (when it fell over while attempting to jump up and down on them) And before that, the chaos giant in my beastman herd was killed by a small unit of Fleshhounds. (He did get to pick one up and chuck it at the Masque, which I admit was rather fun) Granted, this was all from dice rolling, but it does seem like the giants just don't like me at all
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Apr 23, 2009 16:23:02 GMT -5
Hm. Constructive changes I may contemplate for my 1500 point army as of now: Dropping a Warrior block to fit my Giant in, dropping MoS on everything cuz I hates it. I'll wind up keeping most of everything else in there for now, the Trolls were just about the only unit that killed something important in hindsight so I'm gonna keep working with them. We shall see where my list weighs in at 2250, prolly gonna be severely outgunned with the expensive DP HQ but ah well I didn't have much luck with my Giant either, but what the hell. They look like fun and it's a cool model. That's all the reasoning I need at this point, at least while I'm still learning. At least I'll go down in style.
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Apr 23, 2009 18:07:52 GMT -5
The thing with the giant, especially in Warriors of Chaos, is that he's probably going to be one of the cheapest things in your list, so he doesn't have to do a lot to earn his points. If they shoot the heck out of him for a few turns and give your more expensive knights and warriors a chance to get into combat with full numbers, or hold up another unit long enough for you to get the charge in, like Bob said, they've pretty much done their job. I just happened to have had some really bad luck
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Post by bob on Apr 23, 2009 19:18:01 GMT -5
The thing with trolls is they absolutely with no question require the general to be within 12" so they can use his Ld for Stupid and Break tests...that big Ld 4 they have isn't worth squat...worse than a Night Goblin, actually!
The warriors are fantastic, but too expensive for M4 guys that can either be avoided or baited or danced around or shot up for most of the game. As much as I'd like to have two of them, I think you're on the right track.
The Giants aren't really very competitive, but they are always good for a laugh and some flavor. fRed has done something amusing every fight (except when killed by the first volley of skink blowgun fire, but what do you expect, those lizards have no sense of humor anyway!) though he seldom actually kills anything. What Giants do excel at is killing large targets with low Initiative (think Treeman, or Stegadon). 1/2 the time when fighting a large target they'll get Thump With Club...targets passes an Init test or suffers 2d6 wounds. Not hits. Wounds. Also great on chariots...they have no I, so auto-fail. Splat.
My favorite personal Giant experiences: Rod's goblin chariot charged fRed's flank, did 3w...leaving fRed with 1. Fred thumps with club, destroy's chariot. Splat! In vassal game, fRed charges big Chaos Warrior unit, rulls Jump Up and Down! I cheer!! fRed falls over! I cry! fRed lands directly on the Warriors, killing 6! fRed wins combat, Warriors flee, die on unit of warhounds behind them. I giggled!
Giants being Large Targets are very vulnerable to shooting...if they can avoid getting shot down, they'll seldom disappoint!
Now, about dropping Mark of Slaanesh. I understand the fluff reasons, but can't overstress the power of Fear and Terror. If fighting a fear-causer, if you lose combat and are outnumbered, you break (except on snake-eyes). Fear is incredibly powerful. Some armies are made of all fear causing critters that will chase you off the table without immunity. I urge you to observe Slaanesh in a more positive light...consider all the benefits The Prince of Excess can bring to you and your army!
<edit> That reminds me...you have two of my trolls?
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Apr 23, 2009 19:51:10 GMT -5
Mhm, that's the biggest problem with the trolls... the stupidity test is ridiculous, but otherwise they're pretty good for the few points you spend on them, the 3 wounds is awesome... I'll see what happens. The reliance on the general is a big one too, there are gonna be some situations where that just won't work out. And I can hardly justify tossing a character in that squad just to babysit them. And yeah, I do have your two trolls... sorry bout that, knew there was something I forgot to tell you in that email! I shall bring them next Monday when I come, sorry again. That's awesome vs. chariots! I'll mess around with the Giant for kicks. I'm not looking for super competitive just yet, trying to learn the rules first. Why is it fRed as opposed to Fred? Ugh... too much thinking. Logically it does make sense to keep MoS I s'pose... I'll leave it on for now then, I have yet to be on the wrong end of fear/terror but that's probably because you told me to keep MoS on from day one Hahaha. It's still about practice, I'm just toying with concepts now... thanks for all the replies guys!
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Post by bob on Apr 23, 2009 19:56:25 GMT -5
Run without MoS for awhile and see how painful things are
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Post by RodTheCid on Apr 27, 2009 13:07:28 GMT -5
I remember that charriot charge, I was expecting that the impact hits and the charge hits will get rid ot the giant, but again the old say... "no plan survives contact with the enemy"
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Post by g on Apr 28, 2009 10:43:06 GMT -5
Well, Brian's giant proved to be very deathly when jumping up and down on Knights, but he did get his share of lances last night. The volley of bows from my archers inflictd a wound by turn 1, then turn 2 a charge took off 5 more wounds. The 6th came from the second round of hand to hand combat, turn 3. Thankfully, the Knight's initiative granted them with first attack... otherwise, all that jumping would have gotten them first!
Now... Trolls... don't even get me started there... those were implacable... throwing up over my Grailies and getting rid of them, with only 3 wounds inflicted after 2 rounds of h-2-h combat! I hate trolls!!
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