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Post by sean on Oct 27, 2009 20:33:16 GMT -5
So Arlin and I have a challenge, where I am going to build and start playing a fantasy army and she will build and start playing her 40k army.
After looking at some of the stuff I have from 40k chaos I have a Bloodthirster model which will work nicely as a daemon prince, some wardogs, and coming to a fantasy battle near you some old bloodletters that with a pound of greenstuff will become much cheaper Trolls than the actual $22 models.
So with all that in mind, along with advice from our fantasy guru Bob this is a list that Im thinking of. Out of it I will only have to buy the sorcerers, Knights, and Shaggoth which is not too shabby for starting a whole 2250 army. I was going to do 2 Shaggoths, and one day will, but for half the $ the chaos Knights become a nice place for my sorcerers to ride around.
What do people think about it?
2242
Daemon Prince - Lv 4 wizard, mark of tzeentch, tendrils of tzeentch, fury of the blood god - 555
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, steed, conjoined homoculous, Infernal puppet, spell familiar - 226
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, conjoined homoculous, steed, skull of katam - 226
Throgg the Troll King - 175
3 Trolls - 135
3 Trolls - 135
3 Trolls - 135
5 Warhounds - 30
5 Warhounds - 30
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - great weapon - 285
5 Chaos Knights - full command, blasted standard, mark of tzeentch - 310
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Oct 27, 2009 21:01:02 GMT -5
I like it - I think it's a very solid list. I like the use of Throgg and the trolls and the inclusion of the Shaggoth - very different than the typical chaos army
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sionnach19
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Posts: 2,709
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Post by sionnach19 on Oct 27, 2009 22:25:21 GMT -5
Hmpf. I like it as well, looks like it'd be a lot of fun to face. A ton of big gribblies to cause problems, plenty of magic casting ability... and with Bob helping you, you'll be fine setting up a solid list  I think it's a little weak on static combat resolution (big blocks of infantry), but well coordinated charges should be able to prevent that from being much of a problem. The Shaggoth is a great monster to see on the table though  |
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Post by dante on Oct 28, 2009 14:01:12 GMT -5
Were you trying to go with a Tzeentch theme here? because a different mark on the chaos knights would problely make them more effective. Prehaps Khorne?
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Post by sean on Oct 28, 2009 14:18:21 GMT -5
I dont really want them in combat right away as Im planning to hide my wizards in them.. their standard gives them a 5+ ward save against anything in the shooting phase and the mark of tzeentch would bump that to a 4+.
Plus since theyre my scorerous guard its a kinda themy thingy.
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Post by bob on Oct 28, 2009 14:54:15 GMT -5
I like the overall list. Double check the equipment on that first Sorc, I think both Puppet and Familiar are Arcane, can only have one Arcane. Also, if I'm not mistaken, you can't have two guys with the same Gift, so only one can have Conjoined Twin Myslexia:  I'd not put both wizards in the Knight unit, no more than one. Too easy to tie up both wizards if they're in one unit. Putting them with trolls is perfecly doable...the troll can use his Ld if too far from Throgg or DP, and the wizard can still cast even if trolls go looking for potatoes. You have a very low model/deploy count, so you'll be 'behind the ball' at the start of most games. With the tremendous amount of magic firepower, you should be able to melt away giant chunks of enemy armies before they get to you, but be warned that magic is very fickle...there will be times when you roll three miscasts in a row and lose half your army in one go. |
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Post by sean on Oct 28, 2009 14:59:21 GMT -5
okay cool Ill think of some things to change out... and probably put the conjoined twin with the trolls since he'll have to check for stupidity anyway if he uses his power.
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Post by sean on Oct 28, 2009 16:31:36 GMT -5
Beefed up two of the troll units, so... the wizards can cast even if the trolls are acting stupid? Because that changes my bad feeling about putting them in those units entirely. And lets the knights simply run around charging things.
With 13 points left I couldnt decide on anything worth while, I guess I could give all the dogs a 6+ save but thats not really important to think about at the moment.
2237
Daemon Prince - Lv 4 wizard, mark of tzeentch, tendrils of tzeentch, fury of the blood god - 555
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, steed, conjoined homoculous, Infernal puppet - 211
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, steed, skull of katam - 206
Throgg the Troll King - 175
4 Trolls - 180
4 Trolls - 180
3 Trolls - 135
5 Warhounds - 30
5 Warhounds - 30
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - great weapon - 285
5 Chaos Knights - full command - 250
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Post by bob on Oct 28, 2009 19:40:11 GMT -5
Can you get the 12th troll if you drop the knight champion?
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Post by sean on Oct 28, 2009 19:52:48 GMT -5
No theyre 45pts and the champion is only 20 plus the 13 I have extra... I could drop the great weapon on the shaggoth too and that would get me the 12th troll. Would it then be better to have 4 units of 3 trolls?
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Post by bob on Oct 28, 2009 20:32:50 GMT -5
Not sure on the trolls. Math-hammer assumes you have to come up with 5 points of combat resolution (which is what the typical "static" unit has) to not lose a fight...4 trolls = 12 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds. I think they need to be in units of 4 to not lose badly when things don't get arranged so that you'll have combo-charges, but that can go either way, as having more units of trolls means you're more likely to be able to arrange a combo-charge.
I think you should drop the skull and the humonculous, as fun as they are I think they're un-needed. The Tz guys could even be dropped to lvl 1 and be perfectly functional: the spell you'll most likely be using is the #1, which only needs a 4 to cast. If you stick with the level 2, you can use their two dice to cast it, with almost definite success, and have a high enough casting roll (remember Tz is +1 to cast already) that it's a significant investment in dispel dice for the enemy, or they risk you rolling that seven S7 hits! I would drop that skull and get a scroll and a power familiar. The power familiar goes in to your pool dice, not the wizard's that has the familiar, so it's another die your big demon prince can use on Gateway. Hard to go wrong with having 7 dice to throw at Gateway and Flickering Fire!
If you drop the humonculous (note that even if this wizard is in a unit of trolls, he will be subject to two Stupid tests: the Troll's, then his own...both of which are affecting the whole unit, more or less) and the Champion from the Knights (note he's really only useful as something to accept/give challenges, since you're bound to accept them...handy to protect squishy heroes in the unit) you have enough points for the 12th troll. OTOH, having that champion in there can help the unit protect one of your wizards from something mean and nasty!
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Post by Dr Carnivean on Oct 28, 2009 21:32:19 GMT -5
I agree with Bob's points about the static - against a unit four ranks deep with full command you'd need to cause six unanswered wounds just to avoid losing (since musicians break ties) and trolls don't have the best leadership.
On the other hand, anything with that many ranks is usually fairly weak - zombies, goblins, free company - though you'll occasionally find the big unit of grave guard or elite foot troops around a general or BSB. Your knights will be better suited to breaking those kind of units, or soften them up with magic and then let the trolls have at them. I think a lot of it will come down to getting the trolls matched up against the right units, and using your other weapons as troubleshooters to deal with stuff they're not geared to fight. What I think the trolls as core is going to work really well against are those small but expensive elite troops whose high strength attacks and armor isn't going to mean squat against regeneration and troll vomit, and also those low Ld human and greenskin armies that are going to have to be making lots of Ld rolls. The only army type I can see giving this list a really hard time would be high magic tarpit armies (particularly undead who will be able to raise up cheap troops faster than the trolls can kill them and will have the dispel dice to stunt the magic a little - although that works both ways too since you'll have a decent six dispel dice with your currrent list
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Post by sean on Oct 28, 2009 22:41:01 GMT -5
I really like the idea of the spell pandemonium.... and thats where a lot of my thinking and posturing magically was running... was that just dumb and you guys dont see it really working out practically. I thought of it as some nice bonus magic defense, since with the puppet I could control the opponents misacst table to a small degree and cause them problems hopefully.
Anyway cut down the sorcerers some more and fit in a block of 5 trolls, and 2 of 4, one of the 4 would have a sorcerer, and the other would have throgg so in either case I think that covers some of the combat rez you were talking about with them bob.
2242
Daemon Prince - Lv 4 wizard, mark of tzeentch, tendrils of tzeentch, fury of the blood god - 555
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, steed, Infernal puppet - 191
Chaos Sorcerer - Lv 2 wizard, mark of tzeentch, steed, power familiar - 181
Throgg the Troll King - 175
5 Trolls - 225
4 Trolls - 180
4 Trolls - 180
5 Warhounds - 30
5 Warhounds - 30
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - 265
5 Chaos Knights - musician, standard bearer - 230
Thanks for all your help so far guys, Im gonna get my hands on a rule book soon and im sure once I fight a few times Ill start to understand some more of what youre talking about and be able to adjust accordingly. I just like the idea of a mess of trolls and magic actually doing something... since it has little effect in most 40k games(mainly because i forget about it when I play eldar).
Im just excited that I was able to find a way to start a nice army with as little startup cost as I did. Im hoping to do well at this tournament next weekend maybe score a few of the goodies that way as well. ;D
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Post by bob on Oct 28, 2009 22:47:30 GMT -5
Pandemonium is spiffy, but remember you don't get to pick your spells, they're random before every battle. The one spell you know you can get is the #1, and IMO it's the best of the lot.
I REALLY like the 5th troll there...that's a lot of puking ("Ready lads...one...two...three....PUKE!")
I miss the dispel scroll. I never leave home without one. When the enemy lvl 4 rolls five dice and comes up with a 20+ roll to cast, your six dispel dice are going to feel awful puny. A scroll is decisive for preventing the one decisive cast that your opponent manages, and buys you a turn or two to wittle down his magic potential.
That being said, I can't see anything I'd give up for a scroll. The only possible thing is the puppet...don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the best items in the army book, but I think with Tendrils and using only two dice at a time for the wizards, you're pretty safe from miscasts. You COULD do without it, not saying you SHOULD. Food for thought.
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Post by sean on Oct 29, 2009 13:05:13 GMT -5
Hmmm what if I dropped the Shaggoth for another unit of 5 trolls, that would give me the points for both the dispel scroll and put the champion back in the unit of knights.
I love the shaggoth but I like him better in a pair anyway so its not a huge loss, plus it saves the wallet a litte those beasts are pricey. And I can always add him back in later as my collection grows over time.
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