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Post by whitestar333 on May 1, 2012 6:53:37 GMT -5
This is really great! I'm glad you're getting so involved! I do have to say, be careful about reading too much on the Privateer Press Forums as the crowd there is notoriously negative and often don't consider many alternative uses to models. I believe that every model should be considered and testing on the table before being dismissed. I'm a staunch supporter of the underdogs in this game, and the PP Forums can be quite narrow-minded sometimes, so be careful.
That said, I think that you should really stick with warcasters that interest you the most (for whatever reason that might be) and just keep playing and practicing with them to figure out how they "tick". I go out of my way to play with unconventional warcasters/warlocks and/or units to try and find new and fun ways of using them. Part of the excitement of this game is that there's a lot of tactical depth and a near infinite number of options. You'd be cheating yourself if you didn't explore them all!
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Post by gretchinmike on May 1, 2012 7:03:19 GMT -5
I've been reading a lot of battle college on al lof the khador, and I'm unable to find a unit that really is unplayable. They are all great, so long as you use them correctly. Even an army of 50 winterguard can swarm your foe and overwhelm them, and hopefully find a spot to charge their caster. Considering that someone already uses Vlad, I want to try one that I don't think anyone in the club uses. I'm still going to use Vlad, but one part I love about this game is that you can make a list that is no where close to another persones, and still win. With that in mind, once I get my head around Vlad long enough I may try out kommander Strakhov, since I like their feet...
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Post by whitestar333 on May 1, 2012 10:55:37 GMT -5
Another great unit I was discussing the other day in my game against the Harbinger is the lowly Assault Kommandos. These guys are often touted as being terrible choices, but they're not. Here's an exerpt on them from my Underdogs article:
"Assault Kommandos suffer more hate than most of the other choices in the Khador arsenal because anything that you could use to make them better, makes Winter Guard better too. They're good all-rounders, however, and since they are immune to cloud effects, corrosion, and fire, they are much better than I think they get credit for. Throw in shield wall and two standard attacks and these guys make a good front line while able to clear out swarms of infantry - especially with their attachments which not only spew fire, but can explode without hurting their komrades. These guys should be considered even more now that 'character restriction' is standard and you can't run a Winter Guard Deathstar in every list, but then again everyone is just turning to Kayazy or Iron Fang Pikemen instead. I still think that the Assault Kommandos offer some great utility that Khador can use, especially against factions that rely on continuous effects or elemental AOEs for clearing out infantry (Cryx, Menoth, Legion)."
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Post by gretchinmike on May 1, 2012 13:34:35 GMT -5
Oooh, I might need to try those now, throw them in with a few doom reavers and I'll scare stephen and his little army of flame throwers
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 1, 2012 14:59:27 GMT -5
Strakhov is great -- I love his model fluff, and his feat/spells make him a master of getting the alpha strike. However, he has a hard time buffing his models to make the hit better/harder, so self-sufficient units are his friends (Great Bears and Doom Reavers are perfect for this).
He has the elite cadre rule for Assault Kommandos, so in concept they're a good team... I've played around with them before, and I really want to like them for their durability. I just find them a bit too pillowfisted to really do anything (or rather, justify their high price tag). But Whitestar's right, experiment. Play with the stuff that you like and get a feel for it... WM is better in 40k in the regards that even subpar models aren't *useless*. You won't find a Pyrovore in the Khador book haha. Some choices are definitely more competitive than others, but you have a lot more flexibility running what you want to run and finding a way to make it work.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 1, 2012 21:03:38 GMT -5
I really have no clue about any of Strakhov's rules, but I know that I love his feet. I know that regardless of what I want to get next, I need to get the cards, just so I can be more efficient when experimenting.
I really want to know Vlad3's stats and at least what his feet his, I'm really excited for that info.
Now onto something that is less likely to come up once I'm satisfied with the choice, What non special jacks should I use? I know that Juggernauts are really efficient, but they can be boring. I like the destroyer, but I feel as though it doesn't do enough for the points. The Spriggan is good, but it's meant MOSTLY for infantry, and I really fight big stuff like jacks and menoth's version of Men-O-War, which can tend to deflect a punch from an infantry hunter. Beserkers are cheap, and I guess can be good however they are a tad unreliable and aren't the most efficient model. For the most part, that's what I know the most about the jacks, so any corrections or recommendations are needed. THANKS
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 1, 2012 21:16:51 GMT -5
Hahaha, you're just like I was when I started the game -- totally into the flashy feats. A good spell list can't be underestimated -- if anything, it's more useful because it can help you every turn.
The best non-character warjack for Khador is probably the Spriggan -- reach is a big deal, it has solid armor, the flares/grenade launchers, bulldoze. The Devastator is cool too, but more effective for scenarios -- not the beatstick you want. I'm a big fan of the Kodiak... runs for free, and pathfinder is so helpful. His chain attack can be really brutal. The vent steam ability has some nice use too -- either to make clouds, to hide guys behind, or to auto-hit high defense infantry.
If you're running lots of warjacks, you want to look at the cheaper alternates... juggernauts are awesome beatsticks, and berserkers are focus efficient (even though they kinda suck, for Khador heavies). I have a feeling you'd rather more low end 'jacks than a few high end ones. Behemoth is still the best warjack (if not the best heavy) in the game -- awesome shooting output, unbelievably combat output, and can do both at the same time. All while having a full damage grid and arm 21. I love him.
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Post by whitestar333 on May 2, 2012 6:36:33 GMT -5
I'd also take a look at the Marauder. It's often overlooked but I think it's quite the effective warjack for its cost.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 3, 2012 6:34:22 GMT -5
I kinda like like the jack that blows up into steam, I forgot what it was called, but that seems like it can help me quite a bit towards killing infantry and even taking down some jacks...
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 3, 2012 14:53:36 GMT -5
That's the Kodiak. It's probably my favorite non-character Khador 'jack (though the Spriggan is probably better, I don't want to buy one until they make a plastic kit for it). Has anti-infantry capabilities, is focus efficient, pathfinder/runs for free... not the strongest 'jack, but Khador has so many damage buffs that I hardly mind.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 6, 2012 19:00:00 GMT -5
So I've been doing some try out games again, and I'm noticing how great the Juggernaught is... It succesfully lived through 4 bane thrall attacks, not that bad. In addition to that it's very cheap, so I think that I'll need to stick with them for a while.
I was taking a look at Ebutchers card, and noticed his thresher like ability. Does anyone have any experience with him? He sounds like a lot of fun and very interesting, but I'm not sure that I would know how to use him/ what he should fight
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 6, 2012 20:59:12 GMT -5
Chris used to play him for a while. He's a really atypical warcaster, so I wouldn't recommend playing with him just yet... he won't help you learn the rules as well. Random focus hurts him, but he's terrifying in his own right -- he can walk through entire infantry units on his own without spending a single focus point! He plays strangely: needs to be up front killing things to get the most out of his abilities/spells, but that's a risky place for a warcaster to be.
Khador warjacks aren't flashy, which often leads to faction envy for me... they're very very slow and have okay statlines, but their high price tags and our lack of good 'jack support makes it hard to run a lot of them. But they are damn resilient! Most opponents will have a hard time scrapping a jack in one go, which helps when weathering the alpha strike. A unit of mechanics goes a long way towards helping your jacks stay operational.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 9, 2012 17:57:12 GMT -5
Does anyone have any experience with Torch? I was taking a lok at him and he seems as though he has very little to fear, but he seems very expensive. If I'm not running PVlad, then I might try him out since I only take Drago because the great buffs that I'm given. I think that he can do some great damage, but how should he be used? should I have him charge the big stuff, or go after other things that are tiny? I'm beginning to experiment with different types of units, just to see what I like, but to know if I like it then I'm going to need to use it right and I'm not always sure how to do that, so excpect many more of these questions to come, along with list ideas using them. Thanks in advance!
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 9, 2012 21:06:20 GMT -5
Torch is a really, really weird toolbox 'jack. He doesn't really have one focus, but pays a lot for his utility -- he's not hugely popular for that reason. The immunities and smoke launchers are the main reasons to take him, imo... but playing against Bobby and Stephen, you'll get a lot of mileage out of those two immunities. The Flamethrower is a cool touch, but Torch has such an abysmally low rat that he'll struggle to hit basically anything with it. Still, it has potential and the ability to fire it in melee means he can usually set stuff on fire that's hiding behind his main target. I've never actually given it much thought, but he has good synergy with pSorscha -- she can make stuff stationary for him to line up easy flamethrower kills! The sustained attack on his buzzsaw is pretty sweet too, as against high defense stuff you only need to boost once and then can just worry about buying attacks. If you can get a free charge somehow, he can spend one focus to boost the charge attack and then buy two more. That's a lot of hurt! He's expensive for a slow beat stick -- he doesn't have reach to help get to combat which is his biggest issue, and he doesn't have any sort of impressive ranged weapon that can help him contribute to the game even when he's not in combat. But behind Drago, I think he's the coolest looking Khador 'jack... you'll get a lot out of him because his immunities come into play against your primary two opponents, and I think he could do pretty well with pSorscha or pVlad (Sorscha has boundless charge and her feat, Vlad has signs and portents and his feat). I've also been doing some thinking on the best 'jack caster in Khador, and ultimately... I think it's pVlad. Our jacks need speed, accuracy, and damage buffs (defense/armor buffs would be nice too, but virtually nonexistent). pButcher can do accuracy and damage, but does nothing for speed. Harkevich is great for speed/durability, but can't help accuracy or damage. Karchev can do durability, speed, accuracy, and damage; but is more situational for all of those abilities (he can't really do all of them at once). He's a ballsy caster and I think he could work, but I don't have the experience with him. pVlad can boost speed under his feat (one turn is generally all you need, though Boundless charge can help as well), and signs and portents is a nice passive buff to both accuracy and damage. pVlad runs everything well, and SandP gets the most mileage out of a lot of models so people tend to take infantry with him... but I think running a lot of high armor can work well with him, and he's enough of a supersolo that he doesn't need a ton of infantry to hide behind. I know I'm sort of rambling, but you've got me thinking about pVlad and I think you're onto something with him and 'jacks. Us Khadorans must share in the glory!!!
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Post by gretchinmike on May 10, 2012 16:50:07 GMT -5
Well I like the idea of torch, very interesting if you ask me. I like the idea of having a freaking buzzsaw, that shoots a flamethrower as the enemy is stuck being torn up by the saw. I think he has potential to be really efficient if he were used right, but I want to figure out how that was.
I think that Pvlad or the other guy (the one that's half warjack) that are really good at helping jacks. He can increase their speed, while at the same time being able to help their close combat abilities. I like to run him with 2 warjacks, because otherwise he runs out of focus. During my game today, I was runnning short on focus becaseu I like to always cast blood of kings because what's not to like about Vlad becoming DEF 20 with the wardog? So with casting that, I only have 3 available focus. Even if I pop his feat then I want to put 2 on drago, to charge through any really tough jacks, or atleast 1 to make sure I do some damage to something. In addition to that I need 1 on my regular juggernaught becasue I want him to pack a punch. I can't cast Signs and Portants then, because I won't have enough focus. Since his feat lets me charge with jacks for free I can save on 2 focus, and attempt to use boundless charge on someone (like a great bear) to charge up and attack the caster, who should be able to do massive amounts of damage. If I do that then I don't want to send in all my great bears and be vulnerable, since then I won't be able to take out some jacks if both Drago and my juggernaught die. I feel that I'm really stuck for focus when I do this, since 3 focus on 2 jacks doesn't go as far as I would like, however because Drago basically has a built in Signs and Portants, then I don't need as much focus so I'll be able to save a little there. I think that even though Vlad may be the best for using 'jacks, then he can't handle more than 2 if you want to get the most use out of them, becasue otherwise you end up with 1 jack each turn that won't be doing anything, or all of them won't be performing as well as they should be. Also though you could not cast Blood Of Kings, but that would result in him not being as safe, nor as good at killing the infantry that you want to kill to get the free spell. I personally feel that you should always cast it though, becasue it adds the needed protection, and that a few dead jacks are better than 1 dead caster. And even if you are running Vlad with lots of jacks, you should also include some Men-O-war, becaus you want some way to protect him, and also some way to tie up a bunch of things. What's better than a bunch of guys that are hard to kill and end up eating all of your attacks, even though that there are still plenty of them left. I also think that you would want great bears in a list with him, because they can whipe out most of any unit, and still be strong. Also they can live through those pesky jacks that would kill you, but you get saved with tough. Overall I feel that if you want a Vlad "Jack" list, then you'll need to include more units that have high armor that are extremely tough, rather than having bunch of squishy units that can't kill some of the things that they would need to... If that makes any sense...
On a side note, anyone looka at Beat-09? I like his abilities of thresher, reach, and critical freeze. It adds plenty of survivability, he seems as though he may be a tad like Torch, but not as good at hitting. I like that he's a juggernaught, and he has thresher and is basically a cryx harrower on crack, but the type of crack that makes you not feel pain, and move very slowly... do they make that? anyway I think he's ver similar to a harrower but I'm not sure if he would be fast enough to get into combat with multiple troops to kill them, or even more than 1 'jack to maxamize it, anyone have an opinion about this one?
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