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Post by warpriest on May 10, 2012 18:02:28 GMT -5
Beast 09 is commonly considered to be one of Khador's best jacks.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 10, 2012 20:49:17 GMT -5
The (conventional) top three Khador warjacks: Behemoth, Beast 09, Spriggan. In that order. Behemoth is crazy expensive, but is one of the shootiest, killiest, and most durable heavies in the game. Armor piercing fists mean he's rolling dice +2 on Khador heavies, and damage buffs yield straight additional damage (I ran him with eSorscha for a while... on her feat turn, he was (2d6+2)x2 for damage against a khador heavy). I love him haha. Beast 09 is solid, though I haven't run him in a long time (don't have the model, so don't want to proxy). He basically threatens everything on the board -- high P+S of the Juggernaut's ice axe, but thresher (especially combined with reach) is brutal. His imprint is the icing on the cake, as he gets boosts on every single thresher attack against living models, or all of his strikes on an enemy warcaster. Much of his popularity comes from having reach, ultimately, but as warpriest said he's very popular. However, he's four more points and no more durable than a juggernaut and people rightly fear him so he's a big target. The Spriggan is the budget option -- a big utility jack. Still has reach, and the extra mat on the charge is always nice as well. Grenade launchers are highly situational, but the anti-stealth flares are nice. The shield gives him a pip of extra armor, which is a good deal. Finally, the bulldoze ability is really awesome, very useful for scenario play. Karchev is a great 'jack caster too, though he's apparently really hard to play. I'd like to give him a shot but don't want to spend so much money on the model I'm not sure how you're playing pVlad -- generally, casting signs and portents every turn is the best course of action. The extra buff helps your whole army be more powerful... if you think you need the extra focus, throw it all on 'jacks instead but generally three focus and SandP should be enough for your heavies to deal some serious damage on the charge. Blood of Kings is best saved for the end game -- unless your opponent has some crazy ranged abilities, he's not easily threatened by spells or guns. Once your 'jacks start dying, that's when Vlad casts it to walk around killing things on his own... if you're worried about him being hurt early in the game, just keep him further back. He doesn't have to play super close to the front lines at all.
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Post by sean on May 10, 2012 21:14:02 GMT -5
Yeah with your medium based men of war you shouldnt need to cast blood of kings until you actually want to start doing stuff with vlad.
But maybe you just need more experience gauging the threat ranges of your opponents... or keep vlad back further.
Jacks really wont do any damage, escpecially to other jacks without a full 3 focus plus some buffs. So if you are spending points on Bok each turn your jacks likely wont be doing much. Thats just my opinion. Usually each turn, starting turn 2-3 depending when you can get into threat range you will have one jack loaded up for an assault run and the other jack with your leftover focus ready to support and perhaps finish off an opponents heavy.
One of the keys I find to this game is gaining leverage on your opponent. The easiest place to see this leverage is in the amount of heavies left. Now this isnt always the case because some people dont use too many heavies. But generally you can see a large dip in your oponent if you are the first one to take out one of their heavies, and thus gain an advantage in the amount of heavies on the board.
Examples from my last 2 games can showcase this a bit. Last week I played Whitestar and his one heavy engaged one of mine and fluffed a few rolls leaving one of my 2 heavies only damaged a bit. So my two heavies crushed his one, this gave me a huge advantage. His light jacks were ill equipped to quickly finish even my damaged heavy so were left floating in the breeze.
Later in the week I played Brian. I got a chance to charge his heavy, but fell about 8 boxes short of killing it. This left me in a poor position and I not only lost one heavy but also had my other one severely weakened... however I ended up being lucky in where the damage was done and didnt lose any systems. This meant that my living heavy could win me the game.
I feel that you need to cripple all the way or kill enemy heavies or you shouldnt engage them at all(with your own expensive heavies that is). if you cant kill their main weapon and cortex its not worth your time. SO sending in one of you jacks with only 1 focus is basically asking for your jack to die on their turn.
Thats something to think about.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 10, 2012 21:25:01 GMT -5
The way I play is VERY defensive. I need to cast Blood Of Kings each turn because so far Stephen and Bobby can manuver all around my army so it's better to be safe, and often the extra die from SandP is not needed, I can usually get the job done once. Because I ofte have to fight fast armies u usually spend the first 2 turns backing up because neither of them notice that they begin to spread there arm thin and I can get to their casters by only killing 1 or 2 things. I'll mention more in the morn, I have to get up early
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 10, 2012 21:39:18 GMT -5
To expand on Sean's note about killing heavies, it's magnified a hundred times over for Hordes armies. At least with 'jacks, if you can cripple key systems you can limit retaliation (even with mechanics, it isn't guaranteed... and most people don't run many mechanics around here). With Hordes armies, warlocks can heal their warbeasts themselves, and with only three spirals they function at full capacity even if they only have three boxes left. Any warbeast that isn't dead can be loaded back up to maximum fighting capacity, and be a huge threat. Generally, to wreck an opposing heavy, you'll need a full focus load and some solid buffs. Even Sean with the impressive choir buff had a hard time against my Kodiak, who (even without a cortex or right arm), managed to swing back and deal damage to him. Unfortunately he just damaged the wrong column I think you underestimate Vlad's resilience... so long as they aren't in range to charge you with anything, you don't need BoK. Def15 is hard to hit, Arm 16 will soak damage and he has 18 boxes to chew through? You can move him to guarantee that you keep yourself out of range. SandP is widely regarded as one of the more powerful spells in the game, as it buffs both damage and accuracy for your entire army. It's an expensive focus load, but incredibly potent. It equates to roughly a +2 bonus to hit and damage, which is a big deal... with SandP up when a juggernaut charges with full focus nets it nearly +10 damage, almost one third of a heavy. The fact that it effects infantry as well is mind boggling. Vlad should be able to screen himself and use his control zone measurements to stay out of combat. BoK is more effective at the end of the game, when more of your army is dead and he has to pull his own weight. Sure, casting it every turn makes him near invincible (at least at low levels... at higher levels, there are ways to get around it. Be careful of knockdown!). But you're paying four focus to keep him from dying, essentially leaving you with a three focus caster. Use movement and positioning to keep you from dying, and then you can make use of all 7 focus (which is usually best spent on SandP and then handing focus out to jacks... or, you have enough focus to cast SandP and Wind Wall to stay safe from shooting).
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Post by gretchinmike on May 11, 2012 6:37:21 GMT -5
Mainly when I play stephen or bobby, I can usually get away without needing more than 1 focus on each jack, because If I'm fighting Bobby, then I need to boost to hit, if I'm fighting stephen it's boost to damage. When I charge Drago in, with his built in SandP then I like to boost to hit, becase then the probability of me getting a critical hit is much better. With that, then I really don't need to worry nearly as much about the jack punching me becasue the critical system failure results in it from using a weapon most of the time. The juggernaught can usually do plenty of damage to cripple something, and if not, it's not going to die most of the time from just 1 round of combat. I think that I should either stop casting BOK all the time, or begin to charge/have vlad get closer than I normally do. I think I may over protect him, since hiding behind a wall of 5 Men-O-War with Bok up may be a bit overkill, he won't be getting to me anytime soon then I think that if I don't pop BoK, then I can begin to actually use my jacks to charge earlier, instead of waiting for them to spread out. The way I often win though is to kill the guys near the casters, and to charge someone in there that will rip them to shreads (heavy jack, Great Bear, or even Vlad himself). When I do that, there tends to be atleast 1 heavy jack left. I know charging in the caster may not be safe but it's easy. I think that I should try and kill the jacks for once, but it really becomes a quicker game to go ahead and make them panic when I charge him directly, instead of killing everything in his path. I think the main reason that I usually get cornered, is because I don't want to be charged by their jacks, I would prefer to charge first instead. Usually I back up and get into a tight circle of awesome defensiveness, but I start to form an area that can not get killed by most things I think that the main reason I do that is because they can all go faster than me, and that isn't the most pleasant thought of being in my deployment and in combat by turn 2. On another note, What is your opinion about the difference between PVlad and EVlad. I think I prefer PVlad, becaue I get to cast blood of Kings, not when I start to die. I also think that PVlad's feat is a tad better but you have tried EVlad right, how is he?
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Post by warpriest on May 11, 2012 8:17:31 GMT -5
In Warmachine, it's a good idea to be aggressive and put pressure on the other player. Playing defensively gives your opponent the initiative, which is rarely a good thing for you since now they can dictate the flow of the game.
It's always a good idea to be protective of your caster, but you have to get a good feel for how much danger they are in at any time, and take calculated risks.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 11, 2012 9:15:21 GMT -5
Well I think that I need to start broadening the amount of people I play. I think that I would learn how to actually not hide in the corner if I battled someone that didn't spread their army so thin. I did notice during my game that I'm spending 10/30 points just to sit in the back and hide my caster, along with using 4/7 of my focus, I think that may be alittle bit over protective, so in that case how should I deal with it then. I like the Men-O-War, and they can get the job done and be hard to kill, but I think I'm not sure how they should be used. Should I just have them charge up the field as fast as they can, keeping shield wall up and charge the first thing they can?
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 12, 2012 18:33:06 GMT -5
pVlad and eVlad are really different. pVlad is a much better super solo, though eVlad has some bonuses (reach and defensive strike are pretty cool, and the blood tokens -> extra focus help). Blood of Kings is vastly superior to whatever Vlad's special rules are that buff him as he takes damage, though. pVlad has Signs and Portents across the board to buff everything, which is pretty cool. Personally, I don't like his feat very much -- I think it's kind of boring, and if you want to get a ton of use out of it you want to bring a lot of warjacks... but you benefit from SandP with more models on the field. It's good to note that if you run a jack on his feat turn you move 16" though!
eVlad is a superb infantry warcaster... he gets mini-signs and portents on a unit, but it's an upkeep spell for cheap. Assail functions similarly to boundless charge, though different in application. Transference is one of the best spells in the game, in my opinion (SandP is too, of course). Infantry aren't really balanced around being able to boost like 'jacks are, so having doom reavers or kayazy boosting for hit or damage is very very powerful. eVlad's feat is more powerful, I think -- a Doom Reaver can charge 12" across the board with 2" reach, hitting at mat 10 with pow 16 and 4 dice. It also increases defensive stats. It's probably the number one reason for playing eVlad, and a great ability.
They're both great, but I think you're better with pVlad... he's who I learned the game on as well. I love eVlad's model, so I've been taking him out and trying to make him work (generally I enjoy some success with him, but the last two games have sucked... but those are because I played sloppy and allowed him to be killed).
I agree with Whitestar, you generally want to be the one calling the shots -- camping and waiting for an opening isn't always the best solution, and when we move into scenarios next week it becomes impossible. There are ways to keep Vlad safe beyond casting BoK every turn, and with clever positioning you can make sure the enemy can't kill him anyways. Remember, SandP effects everything in his 14" control zone... so you could be 14" from your front line away from the fighting and still be supporting your army.
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Post by sean on May 12, 2012 21:03:54 GMT -5
Yeah like u said mike I think u need to start playing different people. I can guarantee that you will have a hard time getting to my caster before wading through my stuff. And that's because I'm playing something a lot different than bobby and Steve. Drago seems like he could function reasonably with only 1 or 2 focus. But on a run against a heavy your other jacks will usually need 3 to do it well. Unless you intend to send both at one which could end leaving u out of position.
It does tend to be better to kill the opposing caster if u can but against cagey opponents u will need to manufacture those chances which usually involve threatening their heavy hitters and forcing them to push with their caster to close gaps in their lines.
I would advise against pushing vlad forward too early as anyone can get through bok with some application of spells or feats or focus or with creative play.
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Post by sean on May 12, 2012 23:14:47 GMT -5
And like Brian said once you start adding scenario play.... which is basically every game once you get a grasp of the rules(which is where you are now). Even people who arent super interested in playing an area control scenario will at least play with kill box on. In kill box you cant leave you caster within 10" of any edge after turn 1, so that drastically changes your ability to simply back up and wait.
And the area control scenarios will drive you forward even more. The game designers still say that caster kill is the goal win of scenario play, but the idea of the scenarios is to force players to play differently and actually engage with their enemy.
When you start to get into these missions you'll see what im talking about. The thing to remember about warmachine is that anything will die. No matter what spells or what you think is protecting it. The only time you are truly safe is when you are outside of threat ranges alltogether... and that will only last for so long. You just need to mitigate threats and make it a puzzle for your opponent to get your guy. And then hope you can get his first.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 14, 2012 19:49:22 GMT -5
So now that Both Steven and Bobby are going to be virtually unplayable for me for a while, I'm going to need to start going on Vassel soon, then I'll learn how to try and fight some armies, however how should I go about that with some armies? I know that Cryx are rather fast, and that they are pretty weak once you hit them, and that menoth are all around fairly average, with decent to good armour, but what about everything else? How should khador fight most of the other basic armies? Any help from anyone that knows even a small bit about other armies would be appreciated.
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Post by sean on May 14, 2012 19:59:55 GMT -5
So doing some looking at drago. With mini signs and charge for free I think you may be close to being right on with 1 focus mikey.
With 1 focus he should get in 4 attacks against def 10 jacks with ease. 4 hits against arm 19 will get you about 22-26 damage. Maybe a critical hit in there will knock out an arm system, lucky placement could get you most of the good systems. But the jack wont be dead as most jacks with that statline have about 32 boxes. Now you could say it doesnt matter because it could be crippled, but what if they have some methods of healing... then they could get right back in the fight and finish you back.
I think Drago will do even better against things like the higher defense lower armor jacks of cryx and cygnar. It suffers a bit though against the higher armor jacks of menoth and more so Khador.
And where Drago could really suffer is in the aforementioned rebuttle by a healed jack. For example lets assume you dont kill the menoth jack the reckoner and they either fix the arm or you simply dont get the critical in that area. With ease the Reckoner could rebuttal against you with 5 attacks hitting at mat 8, pow 19(with only 3 focus, and help from menoth support units)... thats bad for you. With average dice rolls hes easily hitting you even at defense 11. And with dice plus one he is easily eating through your armor boxes at 32 damage after 4 attacks and 40 on average if he needs the extra attack a vassal could give him.
SO in summary I think that against cryx light armors or light jacks in general one focus could be all you need to go with. But against a run against a big time heavy you may need to go with the full 3 so you can buy enough attacks to finish it. With a full 3 Focus on him you can get in there with up to 6 attacks if they all hit which is likely with your signs and good mat and usual low def of heavy jacks.
Now as to your point of being more aggressive. Vlad's feat and spells really let you get that alpha strike even against the usually fast cryx. A spd 6 cryx hell jack is charging 9.5 or 11 if it has reach. On feat turn Drago can charge 11.5 or 13.5 with boundless charge cast on it too... so you can once a game really out speed the cryx jacks.
So if you play your ranges correctly you could give 1 focus to Drago, 2 to your juggernaut, cast boundless charge on each of them and feat. THen they can charge 13.5" each into the thick and crush two cryx heavies and create a huge threat to your enemy. Against slower enemies like khador or menoth you can forgo boundless charge(unless you need it for terrain) and load both up with max focus to really hit it against those big jacks.
While I understand that Bobby may have more speed than you( though I find the whole speed thing to be less influential in this game then 40K) what is Steve using that he has more speed than you? I play Menoth as well and find that I am pretty slow for the most part.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 15, 2012 6:32:58 GMT -5
Well the way that steve tends to be faster then me, is because he has 1 of his casters that can go and increase everyone's speed, with things like perdition and such.
Even with Drago I like to give him something else to help him fight a jack, because that 1 focus won't always kill something, so it's best to just go and send in another things, like a Great Bear, to finish it. Also I usually like to boost to hit if I'm attacking a heavy jack, just because I'm more likely to get my Crit with atleast 1 of my attacks, and often if I know that they can repair themselves I can usually just go and use more focus than I want to go in for the kill that time. I think that the 13.5" charege can be used rather well, so I need to start using that to my advantage, so that means I need to get to their Heavy jacks when I do all of that. I also think that I need to find a good way to deal with infantry...
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 15, 2012 10:35:41 GMT -5
A note on Sean's Drago math... with Signs and Portents up, you wind up wrecking that Menoth 'jack with just one focus on average dice (~6-8 more damage). Don't discount how powerful that spell is. Boundless charge is a great spell to have, but I wouldn't cast it as often -- it really robs you of focus to use when you actually get there. Use it for corner cases when it's really important. If you're looking for info on other factions, check out Battle College (google "Warmachine battle college" and you'll find it, too lazy to link from my phone ). It's a wiki that has great info on all the models in the game. Super helpful when playing on Vassal to know what spells and feat your opponent has. You can check everyone's league list with it to see what you'll be up against.
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