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Post by gretchinmike on May 27, 2012 20:00:20 GMT -5
So now that I've had time to REALLY look through my cards, I've seen some stuff that either interested me, I just want to know if it's even worth taking. Greylord Ternion units- I know that they're half decent field control, however they are very weak, because they're mages. they aren't that bad with a koldun lord though, but then that becomes expensive. Thoughts on these guys then? Devastator- Sure armour 25 is great, but it isn't able to be used if it attacks, which is a downfall since I loose my armour. It is expensive too, however I love the idea of the model, I'm just not sure if it's worth whatever it does. Ironfang Uhlans- I know they're Iron fang pikemen, on horses, but they become expensive... am I better of with just a unit of regular IFP? Winter Guard infantry Rifle section- these guys are great field control yes, but can the points be used better, although I DO love the flame templates that stay there for a round.
On a note, I think I found the last caster that I think I would ever use (the other 3 being Vlad, butcher, Karchev) and that's SUpreme komandant Irusk. I think he's the best with lots and lots of infantry, since what's not to love about making a majority of your army have tough, and making a unit move up to an extra 6" a turn? I think he can be good but how should he be used?
On a side side note, I've been thinking a lot about Zerkova since sean mentioned her, and I think she can be great with field control, even though she needs an Arc node, she can be good. With that in mind, how many jacks should she be running then? I think she could work best with 1 kodiak, since that's more charges being blocked and that's just great, and she isn't one of those casters to support many jacks.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 27, 2012 21:27:58 GMT -5
The Ternion is cool support -- magic weapons are important for Khador, magic 7 sprays are good for infantry clearing, and ice cage really helps our heavies lay on the hurt (don't need to waste focus boosting to hit). Very, VERY easy to kill though, which is a downer on a 4 point/3 model unit... I've been looking into picking them up for cool/cheap models, at least. Devastator is very popular for scenario play. Extraordinarily hard to hurt, which lets it contest zones... generally all it's doing is running, so a light focus load... bulldoze is a fantastic special ability... Rain of Death is good for high defense infantry, or laying the hurt on a hard to hit caster. The clam 'jacks are due for a plastic kit in the near future, so may be worthwhile waiting for that to be released. Uhlans -- on the whole, people are pretty down on cavalry. Never played with them, so can't say, but they're prohibitively expensive. Very different role from standard IFP. Rifle Corps have great models, benefit from Kovnik Joe... defense isn't nearly as crazy as normal infantry, who also have sprays. But the Rifle Corps are devastating against most massed infantry, and have board control with covering fire. People who can buff their damage make them menacing too. You and I agree on a lot of casters eIrusk is awesome, he has such a cool spell list for mobility and some really awesome special abilities. He has good synergies with MoW, which I know you run as well. I've enjoyed his regular version a bit more, but can't deny eIrusk is great. Definitely invest in at least one mortar team with him... FFE is scary on mortars! Zerkova could run more 'jacks, since she's pretty focus efficient -- just means less spell slinging for her. She has cool denial and magic stuff, but I've never been really attracted to her. She seems so out of place in Khador that I would struggle putting a good list together for her.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 27, 2012 21:55:49 GMT -5
I don't think I would ever really run Zerkova as a competitive caster, just as someone that since almost no one likes, or can run that well, I would like to try and make her work myself. That's Probobly because in every gamE system I don't think I've ever made a list of of my ideas, 40K my orks are largely based off of what type of army Bob runs, with slightly different close combat feelings. Fantasy my orcs are based off matt's idea of hoards of goblins, and Bob and Rod's ideas of a great big unit of big uns. Flames is what Greg started, with lots of guys and a few tanks. So really I just want to get something g to work without anyone else's list pushing it's way into how it's played One thing I love about warmachine is how even if you run similar casters the army can be very different. I don't know how you run Vlad, but I prefer the really tough units that can't die that easily. I'm not sure what I want in my army instead of Kayazies for next round. I may try Kommandos, but then I have 2 points to kill and I'm not sure what to get then... Maybe an "upgrade" To my juggernaught?
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Post by aetios on May 28, 2012 12:05:26 GMT -5
Well, for the next round, if you don't have a war dog that's certainly a great add-on for almost any Khador caster. I hate that damn thing but that's just because it's such a great model for how cheap it is!
If you really want to run a caster that no one else in our group looks towards, you should look into the Old Witch. She runs the only arc node Khador has and is all about board manipulation. Thanks to her Augury ability you can take a shooty jack and not have to worry about concealment or forests, though stealth will still be a bother. With the scrapjack you get a decent infantry killer, especially with her spell list. She also gets to upkeep a spell for free, which is always nice! However, she's definitely not a caster you want near the front lines if you can avoid it.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 28, 2012 12:56:56 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say nobody runs the Old Witch... Chris plays her pretty extensively whenever he's around (and eButcher), and she's next on my list of 'casters to pick up. It was either her or eIrusk and Mikey made that decision for me If you don't own the war dog already though Mikey, you should get it. Such a great model. As far as running your "own" list... there's definitely nothing wrong with that! Warmachine is definitely better than 40k in that regard because none of us are really "masters" at it yet, so everyone's advice is kinda valid. A good opportunity would be picking a caster nobody plays, or even better a faction/list that almost nobody plays -- then you have free reign to figure out how it all works by yourself. Just don't pick Gators I want them.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 28, 2012 19:04:50 GMT -5
I was actually loooking into retribution next (In a long time though). I have the wardog in my list, but I don't own the model, I want to convert a goblin electric wolf, and it already looks rather spiffy. I like pld witch, but since chris uses her a lot, I didn't want to, and I hate having weak infatry, I started warmachine to have armies of massive robots that charge up and punch the shit out of each other, and Khador (the way I'm running them) is about the closest I can get to that. I know that I've mentioned all of the caster I wanted before, but I still know that I want to buy all of the casters, just because then each caster is kinda like having a new army, like different factions of space marines. I still can't wait till Vlad3 and when I get the conquest, although I'm curious as to if the conquest will even be worth taking in a game, if it's strong enough, since I'm sure that armour piercing will just kick it's ass.
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Post by gretchinmike on May 30, 2012 21:00:31 GMT -5
So with the new round coming up, I want to try out the commandos, but what are peoples thoughts on them... hell are they even worth taking? Sure they loose stealth but they have the potential to be mch much stronger... Also if I take them, then I have 2 spare points, so what should I incvest in? I can upgrade my juggernaught, but I really like what he does for his points... any recomendations. Also if I choose to ignore taking commandos, I can take a full unit of winterguard, the commander and banner, and Joe. That's a lot more possible anti jack stuff, but will it be the anti-infantry that I need?
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on May 30, 2012 22:03:29 GMT -5
Winterguard are awesome. They're my favorite infantry unit in the game so far... sprays and boosted attack rolls makes them devastating against infantry. CRA threatens jacks, and they're pow 12 base so still pretty scary. Self buff to def 14 is nice, but Iron Flesh on top of that is scary. Game breaking right there, if your opponents can't deal with it.
Kommandos are meh, in my opinion. They look really really cool on paper, but they can't really kill anything -- painfully low mat and pow means that they're not able to hit things they can hurt, or hurt things they can hit. Gas grenades are kinda cool. Shieldwall is a lame ability, in my mind... so difficult to effectively use it without slowly yourself down. Immunities are really ace against some casters/abilities, but again... it's kinda limited.
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Post by wolflordsteve on May 30, 2012 22:55:49 GMT -5
[quote author=sionnach19 board=wm thread=2606 post=25074 time=1338433409Immunities are really ace against some casters/abilities, but again... it's kinda limited.[/quote]
For example if you want to throw up a huge middle finger to my army...
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Post by hivemindbob on May 31, 2012 13:08:32 GMT -5
Messing around with commandos is sort of a double edged sword in my opinion. They're pretty much invincible to flame guard or bile thralls, but they come up a tad short against anything that doesnt use acid or fire.
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Post by gretchinmike on Jun 1, 2012 6:28:17 GMT -5
Well that's the hole reason I'm taking them, since you're flamethrowers and anything else will kill all my kayazis, I need something to do the job I actually wanted them to do... That still leaves me with what to do with 2 points left. And bobby isn't a sword supposed to have double edges?
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Jun 5, 2012 17:56:03 GMT -5
I don't think the AK are worth it, but that's me Hope you had better luck with them! If they were a bit cheaper they could be useful, but without any sort of threatening offense you're just paying a lot of points for defensive stuff.... and pow 10 threatens arm18 shieldwall pretty well, still (certainly on the charge).
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Post by gretchinmike on Jun 5, 2012 21:05:30 GMT -5
I actually never got to use them that well, I wasn't sure how to use them so I really eneded up with a loss of points I was looking into behemoth since you and dante's little Dante- rarrr cryx are guud n stuff You- say that to mah behemoth Dante- that sucks, I can do twice whatever that does with just mah casta You- say that to EVlad as I load his cannons wit middle finga missles Dante- silence (Slowly crying in corner) And that's EXACTLY how it happened Any way, I want to try Big B but I'm not sure what a list needs for him to be succesful. I know I need a nice unit of battle mecaniks, which can benafit an army as a hole. I also know that I like having 2 jacks, so maybe Big B and Drago? that would be 21 points in jacks alone, so that is pricy +5ish points for repair guys... Rather pricey I know but it can be mean. Then if I do that I would want some of the best things I can get to do massive amounts of work, to make up for my limited models. I think in a list like this, the black fang pikemen would be priceless, since then armour 22 would make them need some real dedication to kill them. I do also think that a list like this, Doom Reavers would be very much needed anti infantry, and enough of them can kill any jacks I have problems with. This is all with a list containing PVlad, so I'm unsure as to how well I can run 2 very very focus hungry jacks. I know that sounds important (I know I know, but I don't care) would be great in a list like this... I'll think up a list with this in a little, time to eat dinner.
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sionnach19
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Post by sionnach19 on Jun 5, 2012 21:22:47 GMT -5
Behemoth is completely, objectively the best 'jack in the game -- the complaints come in regards to his cost/effectiveness; but his armor piercing fists are probably the strongest melee weapons in the game, he has a full damage grid/fantastic base armor value, and he has the fire output of two Destroyers taped to his back. I love him, obviously. He's an incredible workhorse -- unlike a melee 'jack, he can make up his points by sitting next to your caster throwing bombards across the field. While he won't often be getting the alpha strike, he doesn't always need it... bubble wrap him to keep him safe. In combat, he can be surprisingly focus efficient: without boosted damage or any buffs, he's doing an average of 9 damage per swing to a Khador heavy (and he has two initial attacks). He will rarely need a full three focus to wreck whatever you send him up against. The main arguments against him are that he's expensive, which is true. In more and more lists that I'm creating, I'm finding that if I want to include Behemoth I run out of room for all the infantry/support that I need. At 50 points he's way more of a no brainer. Also, he can be a little focus hungry -- throwing a ton of focus on his subcortex will dry out a lot of casters. Some people this won't bother (pButcher is my go to guy for this, as he has nothing better to do with his focus anyways), and you shouldn't have a problem with pVlad (you'll be spamming SandP, and then have the extra focus regardless). However, some casters want more focus... the new Vlad3 will probably be wanting to cast Wind Wall every turn, which doesn't leave enough focus for boosted shots. pIrusk would like to spam Inhospitable Ground, or dual cast Battle Lust. Behemoth's sweet spot is usually in a list with only one 'jack, because he has the shooting output of two jacks with the melee output of a jack and a half, as well as being super durable. Since lots of Khador casters don't want too many 'jacks, Behemoth fills that gap well. Pairing him up with Drago isn't a bad idea, since Drago is absurdly focus efficient. Still, a large investment in points. Dante thinks Big B is too many points, all your eggs in one basket... I ran Behemoth a lot back in the day to great success, so always called him out on it. The challenges I issue stem from the fact that I've beaten Dante in about 3 games using Big B at this point (including decking Terminus in the face for a one hit KO in our last Ordo tournament)
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Post by aetios on Jun 5, 2012 22:48:05 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to side with Brian on this one - Behemoth is arguably the best jack in the game. Read the last No Quarter... he nearly killed the Cryx colossal on his own, and his dice weren't even that great. I don't think there really is any other jack in the game that can even come close to that.
Now that being said, the Drago/Behemoth combination is nasty. But it is a huge points investment. I think you might be better off Jack Marshalling a cheaper jack, say Berserker. You don't get the special abilities of Drago, but you gain whatever your Jack Marshall's abilities are and, since you'd be using no focus at all, don't run the risk of blowing up. The Koldun Lord is probably my favorite - not only do you get the jack marshall boost to help his own jack, but you can powerboost a nearby jack. Hooray for free focus! However, the MoW Kovnik can't be beat to run a Berserker. He already runs/charges for free, and now he'd get free boosted attack rolls! All of a sudden you stand a great chance of getting those critical system failure rolls. Not only that, but the MoW Kovnik being the beast he himself is, you basically just got two heavies and a light jack for 22 pts, all of which is very focus efficient. It seems a little redundant for that ability considering Signs and Portents, but it does allow you to not have to worry about either making Vlad go first to get the boost or staying within his control area.
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